CAS Rugby 2015
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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BRUMBIEJACK
Larry Dwyer (12)
Three years
WavesToWin
Chris McKivat (8)
Rebels rising
Stan Wickham (3)
I think a reason for the heat on those coaches was the level of expectation for their teams, Knox had a lot of talent last year and came second so that was probably the main reason for the criticism of Williams position. The critisism of Cornish and Maloney is most likely because before the season waverley were expected to be a clear 2nd and potentially, challenge knox. IMO the waves coaches have been unfairly bashed considering the amount of injuries that they suffered throughout the season. Also notice that the coaches in question rein from the two schools who arguably have the highest year-on-year expectations from the old boys and school community due to the history of success and most likely in knox's case, funding. Engele is trinitys sportsmaster and a PE teacher and his co-coach ikeuchi is an economics teacher and former school captain. I think it would be a bit unfair the critise them too much as this year they didn't have the talent pool to have success over the full season, in saying this though, next year there won't be many excuses for Trinity with Wayland, Morris, Longville, Rasch and tiuavake in year 12
Kilgore Trout
Herbert Moran (7)
Knox parent reply - Knox seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place - if they don't win with all the effort that was expended they or the coach are underperforming but if they do win they have bought a premiership. I don't know how many of the lads in the first XV have had any 'assistance' to be at the school. Knox played consistently well all season and deserve their success. If too much effort and dollars are being spent on rugby it will be up to the parents to send this message to the Headmaster and school board.
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Rebels rising
Stan Wickham (3)
I agree with you, I am just commenting on why there always seems to be pressure on their coaches, and that's becuase they seem to have an advantage over the other schools in terms of resourcing and there isn't a problem with that either becuase they school community doesn't have a problem with that . Take nothing away from the performances of the players and coaches involved in this years premiership, they have been dominant and well deserving champions
BRUMBIEJACK
Larry Dwyer (12)
I completely understand the dilemma Knox is in, but it is a dilemma of their own making. As soon as you professionalise in an amateur (schoolboy) competition, you can't win. Spend big bucks to professionalise & you have to win. And when you do win people throw rocks at you for spending money. Parents and the board can pat themselves on the back for such sporting success but it needs to be put into context (i.e. what funding resources do their opponents put into the same programs). This is unfortunate for the boys as an undefeated season is testimony to the fact that they must have been good players.
I'm not sure that Knox's board or the parents care, but when each year intake is 50% bigger than most other schools in the competition and big bucks are spent on professionalising the rugby 'program', I'm not sure what sense of achievement comes from being the biggest and richest kid on the block and then winning.
As a Waverley parent our class sizes are 200 max and the fees nearly a third of Knox's. We (and I daresay other schools) couldn't try to match the personnel or funding resources even if we wanted to. And the ethos of the school would prevent us from doing so.
One good thing about the CAS comp has been that it has always been much less tainted by the funding war that GPS rugby started. Professional sports coaches, unlike teachers are likely to have less loyalty to the school because they have less contact with the broader school community. So in future years we may see rugby coaches sacked or moved on for not delivering what their pay packet demanded. It is a potential dilemma for the CAS in a broader context. Currently only Waverley and Knox have substantial numbers of teams in all age groups, so rugby as a winter sport of choice is in trouble as it is.
If Knox's size and funding establishes some long-term domination that makes them difficult to knock off, what would be the sense of playing against them ?An overly cautionary lament perhaps, but Knox will need to be careful that they don't become the 'monster that ate the CAS'.
I'm not sure that Knox's board or the parents care, but when each year intake is 50% bigger than most other schools in the competition and big bucks are spent on professionalising the rugby 'program', I'm not sure what sense of achievement comes from being the biggest and richest kid on the block and then winning.
As a Waverley parent our class sizes are 200 max and the fees nearly a third of Knox's. We (and I daresay other schools) couldn't try to match the personnel or funding resources even if we wanted to. And the ethos of the school would prevent us from doing so.
One good thing about the CAS comp has been that it has always been much less tainted by the funding war that GPS rugby started. Professional sports coaches, unlike teachers are likely to have less loyalty to the school because they have less contact with the broader school community. So in future years we may see rugby coaches sacked or moved on for not delivering what their pay packet demanded. It is a potential dilemma for the CAS in a broader context. Currently only Waverley and Knox have substantial numbers of teams in all age groups, so rugby as a winter sport of choice is in trouble as it is.
If Knox's size and funding establishes some long-term domination that makes them difficult to knock off, what would be the sense of playing against them ?An overly cautionary lament perhaps, but Knox will need to be careful that they don't become the 'monster that ate the CAS'.
CatchnPass
Vay Wilson (31)
I agree with some of what you are saying, but I don't believe that Joeys' historical success in rugby or Shore's in rowing has disinclined other teams from competing against them. Rather, it sweetens any victory achieved.
CatchnPass
Vay Wilson (31)
Do you mean on the day or the season? I may well be mistaken but thought Knox 16As had only lost 1 over the 10 rounds.
rod skellet
Desmond Connor (43)
Just on the day.
Knox also won the 15'as but in my opinion Waverley were the better team but were apparently robbed in the Aloys game
CatchnPass
Vay Wilson (31)
Hmmmm. Having witnessed some curious interpretations from the refs at Death Valley on occasion I'm not sure that Waves should be looking to play the 'we wuz robbed' card too often.
i didn't see the incident but was just saying that Waves should have been champions. shame there's no finals in CAS
Everyone who loses blames the ref. Take a leap out of Michael Clarke's book and admit that sometimes your best just isn't good enough on the day.
BRUMBIEJACK
Larry Dwyer (12)
Fair point and certainly at Waverley any victory over the more economically-privileged schools (read everyone else) is sweet. I suppose my point concerns broader issues as to what type of board and what group of parents thinks that creating a behemoth and then winning a lot serves any purpose other than showing the more cash you put into something often leads to success.
From a purely rugby perspective no one is going to follow their path to 2015 success because they either can't financially or in terms of student numbers, or because they don't want to. It does nothing to promote rugby amongst other schools (admittedly not the aim of any other school) by providing even competition, and I stand to be corrected but I don't see ex-Knox students dominating the Super 15 or Wallabies' sides so it doesn't appear to be justified in terms of feeding the upper echelons of Australian rugby either.
For mine, I'll enjoy seeing the 1st XV coach behind his desk on parent-teacher night Tuesday explaining why Johnny '..has problems with algebra but could do better if he applied himself' knowing that he also showed the same commitment to the older boys playing rugby for the school. Quaint I know but I'd rather 10 of his ilk than one highly paid 'Director of Rugby' regardless of what results they got in the Henry Plume Shield. But then maybe that's just me.
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No, i dont think its just you BRUMBIEJACK
CatchnPass
Vay Wilson (31)
And I agree it would be preferable if all schools stayed firmly planted in that purely amateur era. But I think the genie has escaped the bottle and is unlikely to return to be recorked. Perhaps it was inevitable that at least one of the CAS schools would jump on the GPS bandwagon and try and turn their top few teams into semi pro outfits. The annual 16s and Opens match ups between CAS and other associations almost ensured that as the gap grew, someone would seek to close it. But so long as Knox and any other CAS school works solely to
improve the home grown product rather than seeking to dial a team in later years, I can live with them paying coaches and otherwise resourcing the program. If the parents who pay the fees don't like it, they will make that known.
BRUMBIEJACK
Larry Dwyer (12)
Mmmm. If the genie has been uncorked at Knox, why has it remained corked elsewhere ? I wonder why, given no other CAS school has followed the GPS 'buy a premiership' model that Knox parents and board felt there was a need to replicate the same in their part of the CAS ? As you say, parents can make their feelings known if they don't like the fact that their school feels the need to spend big dollars on creating a rugby program to best other schools that don't feel the need to.
My question is what makes people think it's a good thing to do and why aren't parents at the school complaining, using the simple argument that 'They're schoolboys for God's sake and none of our opposition is doing it so why are we ?'. Parents and schools must have some pretty weird views about what schools are meant to provide in terms of a well-rounded education.
As I said, at the Waverley parent teacher night this week I might speak to the 1sts coach about algebra because he's an educator, whereas at Knox parent-teacher night I doubt anybody will see the 1sts coach because he's not. Still, he's won one premiership in three years so it must be worth it. Some kids must face a real culture-shock when they enter the real world. Here endeth the lesson !
Kilgore Trout
Herbert Moran (7)
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