British & Irish Lions tour of New Zealand (2017)

[Quick Hands]

If you look closely at the replay it's not even offside. The red player in the air touches the ball in line with the L written on the ground. The second red player touches the ball in line with the d written on the ground ie behind where the ball was touched. The fact that the red player in the air then lands behind the ball makes it appear offside. It's where the ball touched which determines offside not where the player lands.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

If you look closely at the replay it's not even offside. The red player in the air touches the ball in line with the L written on the ground. The second red player touches the ball in line with the d written on the ground ie behind where the ball was touched. The fact that the red player in the air then lands behind the ball makes it appear offside. It's where the ball touched which determines offside not where the player lands.

On a literal reading of the laws he never got behind the player who last played the ball and therefore never got himself onside:
There is no requirement for there to be a knock on for him to be off side.
that is not how I had understood the law to work.

 

[Strewthcobber]

If you look closely at the replay it's not even offside. The red player in the air touches the ball in line with the L written on the ground. The second red player touches the ball in line with the d written on the ground ie behind where the ball was touched. The fact that the red player in the air then lands behind the ball makes it appear offside. It's where the ball touched which determines offside not where the player lands.

Some good debates on a few ref resources going on right now on that point QH.

Under a strict reading of the law, the offside line stays with the player, not where it was last touched.

Red 16 hasn't been put onside by any of the methods in the laws

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[Quick Hands]

On a literal reading of the laws he never got behind the player who last played the ball and therefore never got himself onside:
There is no requirement for there to be a knock on for him to be off side.
that is not how I had understood the law to work.

Not sure if that is correct as he is behind the point at which the ball was last played. I can't see how where the player lands in relevant. Otherwise everytime a player passed the ball and was then pushed backwards in the tackle would deem the catcher offside even though the pass was thrown backwards

 

[Killer]

If you look closely at the replay it's not even offside. The red player in the air touches the ball in line with the L written on the ground. The second red player touches the ball in line with the d written on the ground ie behind where the ball was touched. The fact that the red player in the air then lands behind the ball makes it appear offside. It's where the ball touched which determines offside not where the player lands.

Yes agree, imo Read should have been penalised.
(Not to mention Crockett at most scrums)

BTW if it had of been and Aussie or Saffa Ref the Kiwi's would have been having a shot at goal.

 

[Forcefield]

>In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.

>Offside means that a player is temporarily out of the game. Such players are liable to be penalised if they take part in the game.



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Shit- my bad. I thought there was no offside line unless the knock on. I guess that comes from the rarity of situations where a person is offside in this situation without a kick or knock on. So does that make some forward passes an accidental offside? Or a penalty for a really obvious forward pass?

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Argh, the dreaded replay! Without slo-mo, I would have called it a scrum - accidental offside. Owen was retreating and the ball just seemed to land in the cradle of his left arm. But in slo-mo, he looked to be sticking his left arm out to take the catch.

But slo-mo made Read's challenge for the kickoff look unrealistic, and based on that footage I would have gone back and pinged him for it. In real time it looks like a legitimate challenge.

My point is that slow motion will make a player's actions look more deliberate, as it exaggerates the time that a player seems to have to make a decision (also why good fly halves seem like they have all the time in the world - because they make instinctual decisions).

I still can't quite follow Poite's line of thinking, and it all looks bad. Obviously either the TMO or linesman agreed with my real time assessment (i.e. the penalty looks bloody harsh), got in his ear and said 'better review that'. Of course in slo-mo it looks like he played at the football - penalty. Poite seems to have mis-communicated with the TMO, and then seems to talk his way around to a scrum with the captains.

But then again, listening to the telecast the commentators had NFI, and were all over the shop. What really gets me was the 'it's accidental, but accidental doesn't matter' comment. So you're telling me that as a guy who was paid well to play the game, and now is paid well to describe the game, you've never seen an accidental offside?

As a neutral, it was amazing to watch, and this will be argued about in pubs across NZ and in the UK/Ireland for years to come, in a similar fashion to how the 2011 RWC is brought up whenever you put a Frenchman and a Kiwi in the same room.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Not sure if that is correct as he is behind the point at which the ball was last played. I can't see how where the player lands in relevant. Otherwise everytime a player passed the ball and was then pushed backwards in the tackle would deem the catcher offside even though the pass was thrown backwards

It's a pretty strict reading of the law, but that's what is says.....

In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.

The difference in your example is the receiver of the pass was onside when the pass was made so....

11.2
Action by the player.
When the offside player runs behind the team-mate who last kicked, touched or carried the ball, the player is put onside.

Red 16 in this case was offside - in front of the last player who played the ball. He wasn't ever put onside, by a team mate, or opposition player.

Poite called it an accidental offside which isn't possible after a knock-on

11.7 - When a player knocks-on and an offside team-mate next plays the ball, the offside player is liable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So Poite must have deemed it an knock-back which allows for

11.6 - When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

Alternatively he got it wrong!

 

[Dan54]

Ok just got back from NZ and being at the best sporting occasion I ever been too, you had to be at Eden Park to know how great that game was.

While the draw was perhaps leaving everyone feeling a little flat, it was still an ok result, as geez the Lions played well.
Why is everyone trying to work out whether that was an offside penalty or not (I thought it was definitely ) the ref decides these things though I don't know why he changed his mind, the biggest mistake he made was blowing his whistle to start with, because with the advantage law he shoulfd of seen how it played out ALB had picked up the ball and seemed to be heading under the posts, with Felitoa and one of the Barrett boys running over in support. But c'est la vie thats rugby and I suspect the pressure of the occasion was telling a little on Poite as it was on players.

I will repeat that was the best test and sporting event I have enjoyed with the fans of both teams having a ball together.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Why is everyone trying to work out whether that was an offside penalty or not

You must be new to this forum, greetings!

 

[Quick Hands]

Ok just got back from NZ and being at the best sporting occasion I ever been too, you had to be at Eden Park to know how great that game was.

While the draw was perhaps leaving everyone feeling a little flat, it was still an ok result, as geez the Lions played well.
Why is everyone trying to work out whether that was an offside penalty or not (I thought it was definitely ) the ref decides these things though I don't know why he changed his mind, the biggest mistake he made was blowing his whistle to start with, because with the advantage law he shoulfd of seen how it played out ALB had picked up the ball and seemed to be heading under the posts, with Felitoa and one of the Barrett boys running over in support. But c'est la vie thats rugby and I suspect the pressure of the occasion was telling a little on Poite as it was on players.

I will repeat that was the best test and sporting event I have enjoyed with the fans of both teams having a ball together.

Agree 100% that he blew the whistle too soon and I think he realised it straight away. What followed was a genuine attempt to get it right.
A great series from both teams and I thought that the refereeing in all 3 matches was quite good.
I'm sure that Poite had in the back of his mind the disgraceful was that WR (World Rugby) treated Joubert in 2015.
Glad to hear you enjoyed being part of the series

 

[Dan54]

You know QH, I was almost glad series wasn't decided on an offside call in the dying minutes of the game, doesn't matter what was right or wrong decision. If that decision had happened in the 10th minute of the game it would hardly have been mentioned, and really can live with it anyway, mind you Ialways defend refs. And the AB supporters that are complaining about the team, and the supporters from other teams that are attempting to rubbish the ABs over the result are I believe being very dis respectful to a very good Lion's team who I cannot imagine anyone else beating to be honest! My only problem will be trying to get real excited over the RC now.

 

[KAOPointman]

You know QH, I was almost glad series wasn't decided on an offside call in the dying minutes of the game, doesn't matter what was right or wrong decision. If that decision had happened in the 10th minute of the game it would hardly have been mentioned, and really can live with it anyway, mind you Ialways defend refs. And the AB supporters that are complaining about the team, and the supporters from other teams that are attempting to rubbish the ABs over the result are I believe being very dis respectful to a very good Lion's team who I cannot imagine anyone else beating to be honest! My only problem will be trying to get real excited over the RC now.

Should be an ok RC. The saffas look to be playing a lot better then last year.....

 

[teach]

Hansen being all gracious in defeat and accepting the ABs could have been better. https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...s-all-blacks-have-been-served-a-reality-check

Quite happy to see lessons will be learned. The myth of endless AB depth exposed by Crotty's injury and SBW's suspension, the loss of Coles and Ben Smiths concussion/inner ear.

Still, Highlanders beat the Lions and Crusaders didn't, which I can remind my cantabrian brother of for years to come.

 

[The Snout]

Impressed by the Lions. They come together for such a short period of time, go into New Zealand and draw a series, holding NZ to 2 tries (one from a kick) in the last 2 tests when facing match point after the first test.

Defence and the ability to take the few chance they were given goes a long way. Basically, you give away a penalty to the Lions within 55 metres of your own line, it's points against you. NZ are always good for a few of those and the Lions kickers took full toll.

These tours need to continue, they drew this time, won last time. Pretty clear NH rugby is on the way up.

 

[KiwiM]

Hansen being all gracious in defeat and accepting the ABs could have been better. https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...s-all-blacks-have-been-served-a-reality-check

Quite happy to see lessons will be learned. The myth of endless AB depth exposed by Crotty's injury and SBW's suspension, the loss of Coles and Ben Smiths concussion/inner ear.

Defeat? It was a draw.

While this tour did expose the lack of depth at hooker, the ABs did unearth talent at 12 (Laumape) and 15 (Jordie). I think a rested Rieko will beat out Julian for the 11 jersey in The Rugby Championship too.

 

[Baldric]

For my five cents on this Poite should have played on and then a reviewed the incident. If it was reviewed back to the kick it might have been noticed that Reid was in front of the kicker at the restart.

 

[Dan54]

For my five cents on this Poite should have played on and then a reviewed the incident. If it was reviewed back to the kick it might have been noticed that Reid was in front of the kicker at the restart.

While I didn't think Read was offside, can't say I really looked, I agree it would of been the right thing to play on,but I think the ABs would of scored a try, but shit he would of been feeling the pressure as much as the players at end, it was incredible the feeling in the ground. But as we all know shit happens, and at end of the day we know how good the NH rugby is getting, and we had a brilliant series and a drawn series is quite a fair result!

 

[Dan54]

Picture that sums it up for me!

 

[Ruggo]

Annoying and shitty cliché that rugby was the winner on the day but it fits here.

Lots of bitching on the previous pages but the grace that the result was handed with by both captains was for mine was exceptional. To me it is what rugby is all about.

It's a shame it is all over. It was a great tour to watch.

Best thing for mine is that Lions rugby is alive and well so we can see more of these tours into the future. Bring on SA in four years time (via a test in Argentina on the way.)