Brad Thorn's gym training and physical philosophy.

[en_force_er]

Most mirrors are removed at the gym i use as well, it could also be argued that this is probably one of the elite fitness gyms in sydney as well..

Using mirrors you only usually get one angle of a workout, standing front on to a mirror whilst you do military press or squats doesn't isn't giving you a side profile which in a technique sense is critically important in those exercises. Maybe for those still developing their technique and physiological understanding of their own body mirrors are of a benefit, but for people who are serious about lifting and working out they are more of a distraction then benefit.

Give me a training partner over mirrors any day of the week

I've always been of the view that one angle is better then no angles and I've worked out at serious gyms with less mirrors then my normal one but they still have them. Anyway, it looks like this isn't the norm and I've been told.

I've been gyming with no partner for years, as I'm a Uni student my friends are scattered all over town and with incredibly different timetables. I'm eternally in the debt of the people nice enough to spot me when asked.

I'm actually considering entering a powerlifting contest in the next year or so, I've looked at the numbers they put up at comps and I'm already almost "with the pack", but nowhere near the lead.

 

[Bruce Ross]

So why don't I ever see you wearing shorts, Bruce!?!

I found Thorn's bench:squat ratio a little surprising, is this kind of thing still the norm in S&C in the rest of the rugby world? With the Uni S&C's comments on core work, was that surprise he was doing so much, and is that positive or negative?

Jack, you're never around the Sydney Uni campus at weekends in summer when you might see me wearing shorts.

I think that the focus on bench pressing is partly a carryover from American football where the physical testing section of the NFL Combine Test has the bench press as the only weight lifting component. The bench press has specificity for their code but not for ours.

I doubt you can do too much core work. Core stability is vital for so many sports.
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[Bruce Ross]

Bruce I noted that (and I say this in the mostly manly way possible ) that Brad has a pretty big backside, something that you and I have agreed contributes considerably to power in an athlete. I like also that he focuses a lot on core, as I reckon that's overlooked in a lot of sportsmen.

I totally agree with you on both points, TBH. No arse, no power.

 

[TOCC]

I've always been of the view that one angle is better then no angles and I've worked out at serious gyms with less mirrors then my normal one but they still have them. Anyway, it looks like this isn't the norm and I've been told.

I've been gyming with no partner for years, as I'm a Uni student my friends are scattered all over town and with incredibly different timetables. I'm eternally in the debt of the people nice enough to spot me when asked.

I'm actually considering entering a powerlifting contest in the next year or so, I've looked at the numbers they put up at comps and I'm already almost "with the pack", but nowhere near the lead.

Everyone has their own preferences.. the way i train and the people i train with isn't for everyone, you have to have a pretty high level of fitness just to attend this gym..
I guess in that sense i benefit by having people who can critique and improve my technique if necessary.

Im not saying everyone using the mirrors just to check themselves out, but it definitely has a high ratio of posers then a gym with no mirrors. Even if i train at a gym with mirrors, i don't look at them, its not natural to keep your eyes dead ahead when you are performing a large number of difference exercises anyway. Watch most weightlifters and their eyes won't be looking ahead, they will be looking up towards the roof to help with the natural curve of the spine.

 

[hammertimethere]

What is he talking about when he said the canterbury gym isnt that flash? it looks great, just over the course of the video I saw Squat racks, benches, O-lifting platforms and chalk, bumper plates, large dumbell rack with the getstrength auto-spot apparatus and adjustable benches, chin up bars. While some might say thats got to be fairly standard consider that you can also see a range of unilateral Hammer strength equipment (high row, front and lateral pulldown, Iso-row, Incline press and jammer) plus a bunch of box jump boxes, hurdles, strongman gear, Boxing equipment (heavy bags, focus ball, speed ball) and a big clock for timing rest periods. I used to work at a very large, wealthy gym that was insanely well equipped which is how I recognise them. I'm sure I missed some stuff as well.

As for criticising brad's strength in this particular video I would invite you to consider the following
1. He is in-season and apparently a few days after a game, so he would operating sub-maximally.
2. He stated in Part 1 (if you have seen it) that they just arrived back in christchurch from a long flight, and as bruce pointed out their S&C coach emphasises dropping intensity (I saw in another video to about 60-70% for lower body and 70-80% for upper body) in order to facilitate recovery. Possibly that is at play.
3. He said he felt a bit off
4. He was limiting his rest periods and filling what little rest he did take with antagonist exercise pairings (seated row with bench press) and core exercises in order to get his heart rate up. Surely to the detriment of maximal strength
5. He performed those squats to full depth (hamstrings cover the calves) not the parallel (sometimes referred to as "athletes" depth) standard that seems to be the norm for field sport athletes. he also performed them at the end of the session after a number of heavy lifts that tax the nervous system to a large degree. despite all this it did not seem like he struggled with them, it really looked like he was just trying to do a few moderate sets to get the legs back in business after a long flight or heavy game/training load (see point 2).
6. he is old, 36 is a fairly long way past the prime age for maximal strength. he is reputed to have bench pressed 185 kgs in his 20's, which is near the upper echelon for field sport athletes (rugby, league, AFL etc.)(as far as I know). Doing 140 x 3 (predicted 1RM approx. 150 kgs) is not bad at all, particularly with no safety spotter and when tired and run down.

 

[Jnor]

Jack, you're never around the Sydney Uni campus at weekends in summer when you might see me wearing shorts.

I think that the focus on bench pressing is partly a carryover from American football where the physical testing section of the NFL Combine Test has the bench press as the only weight lifting component. The bench press has specificity for their code but not for ours.

I doubt you can do too much core work. Core stability is vital for so many sports.
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Thanks Bruce, I might have to wait for some warmer weather to see the cows come out to graze.

My impression from Thorn's workout was that he was working with minimal rest (doing those core exercises in between sets) and was wondering whether that may be detrimental - not the core exercises themselves.

I was definitely surprised to see him squatting a decent amount less than I have in the past (and a lot, lot less than I am used to seeing from EDS players in the Uni gym).

 

[Bruce Ross]

My impression from Thorn's workout was that he was working with minimal rest (doing those core exercises in between sets) and was wondering whether that may be detrimental - not the core exercises themselves.

I was definitely surprised to see him squatting a decent amount less than I have in the past (and a lot, lot less than I am used to seeing from EDS players in the Uni gym).

Yes, Jack, it certainly was eye opening. Like a freestyle, heavy duty circuit routine.

You are one of the few who are aware there is a ground breaking experiment in physical conditioning being conducted at the Sydney Uni gym. I think there is abundant evidence by now that it produces significant results but it's certainly at odds with the dominant paradigm in Australian professional rugby.
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[Inside Shoulder]

What is he talking about when he said the canterbury gym isnt that flash?

I don't think he was impressed with the dodgy decor and the discoloured ceiling tiles....proving he grew up in oz even if he is an AB.


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[Inside Shoulder]

Yes, Jack, it certainly was eye opening. Like a freestyle, heavy duty circuit routine.

You are one of the few who are aware there is a ground breaking experiment in physical conditioning being conducted at the Sydney Uni gym. I think there is abundant evidence by now that it produces significant results but it's certainly at odds with the dominant paradigm in Australian professional rugby.
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so that experiment has been moved from the manning bar has it?


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[Bruce Ross]

so that experiment has been moved from the manning bar has it?

I doubt they ever did lifts like this in the Manning Bar, IS:

That's 19-year-old Eddie Burrett doing 5 reps bench press with 150kg. At a height of 199cm he has to shunt the bar a long way. The lad has exceptional athletic capacity. He weighs 111kg but has only 50mm skin folds. He runs 10m in 1.65 and does 4 x 200kg single leg on the MyoThrusta which is best in gym by a long way. One to watch.
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[I like to watch]

so that experiment has been moved from the manning bar has it?


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maybe I should drink at the manning bar, line up the players without their jumpers on and you can spot the Uni guys.
They are just about to a man more physically imposing than their opposition.
Love em or hate em, you have to acknowledge they are light years ahead of the rest with S & C.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I doubt they ever did lifts like this in the Manning Bar, IS:

That's 19-year-old Eddie Burrett doing 5 reps bench press with 150kg. At a height of 199cm he has to shunt the bar a long way. The lad has exceptional athletic capacity. He weighs 111kg but has only 50mm skin folds. He runs 10m in 1.65 and does 4 x 200kg single leg on the MyoThrusta which is best in gym by a long way. One to watch.
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I remember very little of what went on there....except meeting my wife

 

[en_force_er]

That's 19-year-old Eddie Burrett doing 5 reps bench press with 150kg. At a height of 199cm he has to shunt the bar a long way. The lad has exceptional athletic capacity. He weighs 111kg but has only 50mm skin folds. He runs 10m in 1.65 and does 4 x 200kg single leg on the MyoThrusta which is best in gym by a long way. One to watch.

What a monster. Terrible bench technique though, he needs to plant his feet more so he gets a more solid base. All that wiggling around is no good.

Yesterday I did a BP at 20yo of 5 sets of 5 on 117.5kg and I was very proud of myself. Now, not so much.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

What a monster. Terrible bench technique though, he needs to plant his feet more so he gets a more solid base. All that wiggling around is no good.

Yesterday I did a BP at 20yo of 5 sets of 5 on 117.5kg and I was very proud of myself. Now, not so much.

How long have you been lifting for? I really would like to tell everyone what I lifted back when I trained especially in comparison to our young SA yardstick above but it may come across as gloating or possibly unbelievable.

 

[en_force_er]

How long have you been lifting for? I really would like to tell everyone what I lifted back when I trained especially in comparison to our young SA yardstick above but it may come across as gloating or possibly unbelievable.

Haha, unintentionally that statement sounds like gloating in itself.

I've been mucking around in the gym with friends and mostly chatting for 2 or 3 years (my school had a weights room) but only lifting properly (3-4 sessions a week with a set routine) for around 1 year.

I don't think discussing what and how you approached your lifting is ever gloating, I found it interesting. It's no different to if you discussed your sprint time.

 

[dangerousdave]

any kind of Olympic lift obviously needs a mirror

Almost every single olympic lifting coach will disagree with you here. One of the reasons to do free-weight exercises like olympic lifts in the first place is for your body to develop proprioception, that is, for your body to sense what position is in and how to move without visual or other feedback. Mirrors hinder this learning process, they will also encourage bad habits as you see things happening in the mirror and try to correct them. The guys that train in the Sydney uni gym who are serious about powerlifting and/or olympic lifting face *away* from the mirrors that are there and several of them can out-squat most of the rugby players while weighing less.

 

[hammertimethere]

Monstrous bench press for a 19 year old beanpole, one to watch indeed. (though I dare say He would have got 2 or 3 tops If his spotter had left the bar alone)

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Haha, unintentionally that statement sounds like gloating in itself.

I've been mucking around in the gym with friends and mostly chatting for 2 or 3 years (my school had a weights room) but only lifting properly (3-4 sessions a week with a set routine) for around 1 year.

I don't think discussing what and how you approached your lifting is ever gloating, I found it interesting. It's no different to if you discussed your sprint time.

Yeah, it does, doesn't it. Okay, in all respect to the kid above but I was filmed benching that same weight in my school weights room at 16 as part of my Year 10 graduation video. By his age my best was a good 40kg heavier. I set the record for about a week before my gym partner bested it by 10kg. We focused a great deal of work around powerlifting and it was a particularly competitive environment, so you were always working to push yourself to the next level. That and I'm somewhat blessed genetically with quite a good base strength level.

As for his technique, all that wriggling wouldn't be helping. I always focused on planting my feet with a good wide base but a little further tucked in than his, I always held my held slightly to my left to correct my natural bias (left handed) and probably most important I focused more on driving my body away into the bench more so than pushing the weight up.

 

[dangerousdave]

Now with regard to calves. Humans evolved to walk long distances, to take thousands of steps each day, and the principal muscles involved are those of the calves. As a result I see them as being fundamentally different to most other muscle groups. You have to tire them to get the right sort of stimulation.

If they're not burning they're not being worked.
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Probably not as scary as having Brad Thorn running at you, Empire. Most body builders are not particularly strong, carrying muscles that have no real function. Note in particular that they have over-developed quadriceps but very little glute development, and it is the glutes that really provide power.

I think calf raises are a silly exercise for rugby players to be doing in the first place, for a few reasons:

1. As you mention rugby players need power/strength and not just empty size, the kind of work on calf raises you propose in the first quote leads to exactly the kind of 'empty' mass you are describing in the second quote.

2. Calves don't contribute much to any of the athletic qualities required to be a rugby player. The lever that the calves have to work with is very short (the foot) and thus can't contribute nearly as much as the glute/hamstring/quad combination which are attached to the much longer levers of your femurs. Plus no matter how big your calves are they will never be as big as the major lower body muscle groups... go look at usain bolt's legs and his skinny calves... big calves do not equal lots of speed or power and small calves will not preclude one from producing lots of speed or power.

3. The calves of a rugby player get plenty of volume from... running. The total amount of miles that a rugby player runs in a year would be up there with some runners, and rugby players are moving a lot more mass around.

You are one of the few who are aware there is a ground breaking experiment in physical conditioning being conducted at the Sydney Uni gym. I think there is abundant evidence by now that it produces significant results but it's certainly at odds with the dominant paradigm in Australian professional rugby.
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Are you talking about applying NFL style systematic S&C to rugby players or the specific exercises that Sydney uni players do? I trained a lot in the Sydney uni gym last year and didn't really see anything that impressed me.

I have a very specific memory of one player looking jealously at my bar loaded with ~150kg for deadlifts and say 'gee that's a lot of weight' (it's not really) as he and his mates did sets of one-legged-backward-squat-with-a-pike with 40kg... or whatever had been programmed for them that day. It seemed like the rugby players never did the same exercise twice, there was always some seemingly pointless variation.

By the way I totally agree with you about bench pressing and rugby... how many benches are there on a rugby field? Well, actually, two but most players spend their life trying to avoid them.

And another thing....

I know a strong core is important but it seems silly to me that everybody does all these semi-isolation exercises that take your core out of the movement then super-set core exercises between them...

For example, overhead pressing takes lots of core strength and is a great developer of upper body/shoulder strength and is probably better for peoples shoulders than bench pressing. So why not overhead press instead of bench press?

Another one would be front squats and back squats. Front squats require a great deal of core strength to keep your torso upright. The limiting factor is usually your upper back strength not leg strength, which is why you can't front squat what you can back squat. So if Brad (or any other rugby players) are looking for a way to give the legs a workout without killing them and getting some core work in then.... front squat. If you want a really light workout for the legs and more work for the core then you could even overhead squat.

 

[en_force_er]

Yeah, it does, doesn't it. Okay, in all respect to the kid above but I was filmed benching that same weight in my school weights room at 16 as part of my Year 10 graduation video. By his age my best was a good 40kg heavier. I set the record for about a week before my gym partner bested it by 10kg. We focused a great deal of work around powerlifting and it was a particularly competitive environment, so you were always working to push yourself to the next level. That and I'm somewhat blessed genetically with quite a good base strength level.

As for his technique, all that wriggling wouldn't be helping. I always focused on planting my feet with a good wide base but a little further tucked in than his, I always held my held slightly to my left to correct my natural bias (left handed) and probably most important I focused more on driving my body away into the bench more so than pushing the weight up.

I'm incredibly impressed but I do have some questions.

Are you talking about 1RM max or 5RM? Also is this to competition form (touching your chest ect)? Raw or with a vest? Natural? Ect.

Because the 1RM Powerlifting Raw U18 Bench Press record in Australia is 142.5 and the same record for U23 is 170kg (I'm suprised by how low that 2nd one is). You would have beaten the national 1RM U18 record with your 5RM at 16 and dwarfed the national U23 1RM record with your 5RM at 19.
http://www.powerliftingaustralia.com/Records/AusMensRaw270412.htm

Now, I'm willing to accept Powerlifting is not a prolific sport in Australia and many people similarly strong or slightly stronger might not get tested but something doesn't make sense.

Not trolling or looking for an argument, just enquiring.