Bledisloe #2 - AUS v NZL, Eden Park, Auckland, August 15th
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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Once again Cooper and or Genia (this time White clearing the ball almost as slow as Genia) step into a team and the team plays too slow, deep behind the gain line and can't organise any forward runners.
Yet again, it's not Cooper's fault. It's just every forward pack he's played with since 2011.
You can ignore all of that and even disagree if you want.
Truth pill time though.
What was clearly no-one else's fault was Cooper's yellow card. It WASN'T an instinctive arm going out to a dropping player in a front on tackle.
Cooper came from the side and could have used that arm to hit just about any other part of Smith's body if he chose to - which would have given the other cover tacklers a chance to stop a try that Cooper then gave away as a penalty try. At worst he would have given up a try but kept 15 men.
But he chose not to.
Worse, a split second later, as Cooper sits under the posts, he knows exactly what he's done and what the ramifications will be. There is no surprise, no attempt at justification.
Even worse, he did the same thing in the last test match he played in against the Argies - and also got a yellow card!
W.T.F?
So when anyone tries to explain away the gazillion points shipped when Quade sent himself off the field, I can't agree - regardless of how reasonably he apparently played otherwise.
This is NOT me saying Cooper is solely responsible for our loss. Clearly he wasn't. But it's time to get real about his role in it - I certainly hope the team management is.
Yet again, it's not Cooper's fault. It's just every forward pack he's played with since 2011.
You can ignore all of that and even disagree if you want.
Truth pill time though.
What was clearly no-one else's fault was Cooper's yellow card. It WASN'T an instinctive arm going out to a dropping player in a front on tackle.
Cooper came from the side and could have used that arm to hit just about any other part of Smith's body if he chose to - which would have given the other cover tacklers a chance to stop a try that Cooper then gave away as a penalty try. At worst he would have given up a try but kept 15 men.
But he chose not to.
Worse, a split second later, as Cooper sits under the posts, he knows exactly what he's done and what the ramifications will be. There is no surprise, no attempt at justification.
Even worse, he did the same thing in the last test match he played in against the Argies - and also got a yellow card!
W.T.F?
So when anyone tries to explain away the gazillion points shipped when Quade sent himself off the field, I can't agree - regardless of how reasonably he apparently played otherwise.
This is NOT me saying Cooper is solely responsible for our loss. Clearly he wasn't. But it's time to get real about his role in it - I certainly hope the team management is.
FrankLind
Colin Windon (37)
Your first post after the result. Stop being so sour qwerty
You also disappeared after the Tahs were bundled out by the Highlanders.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
Could it be me you refer to good sir? Are you just a tad upset at me for lowering the idolising-of-Cheika quotient?
Just as FYI: I don't give a flying fuck about 'going deep into the Finals at the RWC.' And nor do most everyday Aus rugby fans, the Wallabies in the RWC SF stage then right bundled out will be forgotten within a week of it happening. Most won't even remember who they played.
Like every other red-blooded Aussie sports fan, I want them to win the fucking thing! And to do that, it's 70%+ likely they'll have to beat the ABs in a GF, or along the way.
And virtually every comment I ever make here is driven by my assessment as to how likely that final championship attainment looks, and what IMHO is going to be truly required to do it, in terms of the whole panorama of resources, capabilities, skills and attitudes, players, coaches, specialists, the lot, that will forge a meaningful, credible shot at the ultimate victory.
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Haha wow, I'm flattered you noticed mate.
In seriousness, I can't be the only one who thinks a non-playing member getting physical with the opposition players during a match is a pretty big violation.
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
They both think Giteau is a halfback option...
Well yes, though Cheika only has him as backup. I'm actually OK with it and don't think we need three halfbacks in the squad when we could have an extra utility or forward instead.
Micheal
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Holy moly - having been at the pub I didn't get a great look at it (or atleast one I can remember) and just accepted the forum consensus that Quades tackle was a desperate attempt at stopping Smith inevitably crossing the line.
He had plenty of room to work with, was positioned well, and was close enough to Smith to make that tackle - and make it cleanly - whether he hit him on the torso and went low to wrap around the legs.
No excuse for that. Those are the types of moments that win or lose games.
I will disagree with you however on the fact that he didn't attempt to justify himself. As you said, he knew the consequences. Putting a case forward to a referee will never change their mind. They have made the decision for obvious reasons. Reasons that as, in Quades example, are often very clear to the players. Any attempt at a rebuttal will just annoy them.
If you've fucked up, take it on the chin and leave the field without a word. Respect the referees call.
dillyboy
Colin Windon (37)
We were all swearing at the tv over it at my place - what's the penalty for having 16 men on field??? Prolly amounts to the same thing....
Grant NZ
Bill Watson (15)
From what I saw he was trying to hold Julian Savea back, so didn't actually get physical with the opposition.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Gagger has the knives out for Cooper. What a surprise.
EDIT - he fucked up on that tackle to cop the yellow card though. No excuses.
But don't just sit here and say, "oh he could have just tackled around the legs".
Go watch the 2010 Wallabies highlight video prepared by this exact site. Rocky Elsom tackled around the legs at exactly the same position of the field. Slides over the line by about 1m without even reaching out.
Should have hit him in the ribs and wrapped up the ball. Didn't.
The fact he has copped 2 Yellow Cards in 2 games is a huge concern.
EDIT - he fucked up on that tackle to cop the yellow card though. No excuses.
But don't just sit here and say, "oh he could have just tackled around the legs".
Go watch the 2010 Wallabies highlight video prepared by this exact site. Rocky Elsom tackled around the legs at exactly the same position of the field. Slides over the line by about 1m without even reaching out.
Should have hit him in the ribs and wrapped up the ball. Didn't.
The fact he has copped 2 Yellow Cards in 2 games is a huge concern.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
There bee in my bonnet is he shouldn't have been there because he should have been at 10 in the line ready to defend. And so should have any alternative 10 either. I strongly believe the shuffling is a poor tactic. If you need kicking options in the back 3 then Mitchell and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) are the wingers. The Coles try was at least partially caused by that, a bunch of backs on quick counter attack defending in no mans land.
Froggy
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Coopers tackle goes back to his tackling style. If you look right back over his career, he tends to tackle up high, around the ball rugby league style, sometimes even jumping up into the tackle. With that natural inclination, there is always going to be a high chance of it going wrong, particularly under pressure.
I find it both hilarious and exasperating that I point out the something you agree with and it's "me having the knives out for Cooper".
You need to get off the quade-ade.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Langthorne
Phil Hardcastle (33)
Lots of good points here. A few responses:
- Team changes: I'm not sure Chieka was being completely reckless here. We didn't win (much like every Wallaby team since 1986, and everyone since 1994), so in that way it didn't work, but whilst the final result wasn't close, the margin for error was not great - a handful of better decisions/outcomes and the result is very different. I certainly don't think Chieka can be compared with Deans yet - 'experiments' in previous weeks did lead to some success already. It may be that there are benefits to playing the extended squad over the last few weeks that are only obvious at training, and hopefully soon at the RWC.
- Squandered enthusiasm: some great wins, one loss. Fair minded supporters will still be enthusiastic.
- Were all of Chieka's changes a bad idea? Were they all of the problem? Many pundits were supportive of Phipps and Foley being dropped or benched. Speight for Mitchell wasn't hugely controversial. Palu and Skelton were widely criticised changes (but were replaced by the starters from the previous week before the 7 minutes that ended our chances). Would a similar result (highly possible), with the exact same team as the previous week, have been more damaging. I'd say yes, in all ways.
- Cheika coaching the Tahs and the Wallabies: I would agree that it was not ideal for either party. Is it hubris or confidence, or maybe someone who couldn't resist coaching the Wallabies but didn't want to simply abandon the Tahs? At that late stage, I think the Tahs would certainly have been worse off.
- comprehensive Wallaby coaching team: this is an ongoing organisational issue with Australian rugby. I don't think it is particular to Chieka. AFAIK, he did approach Michael Foley to be forwards coach, but it didn't come to fruition. I too would like to see top coaches recruited aggressively, but that would take time, and likely money the ARU doesn't have. The same issues would apply to the whole Australian rugby coaching system. This all must change, and if no improvements are forthcoming in a year then Chieka will end up being as culpable as the other significant parties. At this stage, maybe he is having to make the best of the system and situation.
- at least we aren't the Springboks
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Don't get the Cheika hate.
I was very critical of his work on the EOYT last year where he basically played it safe and stuck with the same team and still lost anyway.
I thought it was the height of arrogance to expect to do both roles this year.
I was expecting a disaster coming in with a 25% winning record and the most difficult tests ahead. He has negotiated them well to be at 50% after 8 tests and 3 certain wins in his next 5 tests now (Due to minnow quality opposition).
He's made the odd selection and tactical error but managed to navigate the team to 3 consecutive TRC wins. Clearly he's moving forward. Last weekend was a step back after a couple forward. But at the same time even the best players looked very tired out there, and it's fair to say the team was probably below their best physically and that preparations have not been centered around that match.
He deserves a little optimism leading into the RWC now.
I was very critical of his work on the EOYT last year where he basically played it safe and stuck with the same team and still lost anyway.
I thought it was the height of arrogance to expect to do both roles this year.
I was expecting a disaster coming in with a 25% winning record and the most difficult tests ahead. He has negotiated them well to be at 50% after 8 tests and 3 certain wins in his next 5 tests now (Due to minnow quality opposition).
He's made the odd selection and tactical error but managed to navigate the team to 3 consecutive TRC wins. Clearly he's moving forward. Last weekend was a step back after a couple forward. But at the same time even the best players looked very tired out there, and it's fair to say the team was probably below their best physically and that preparations have not been centered around that match.
He deserves a little optimism leading into the RWC now.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Law 6.A.5: http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=6 -
Persons carrying water for the players may only enter the playing area during a stoppage in play for an injury to a player.
SANZAR must be trialling a new amendment to the Laws that is not documented on the World Ruby website.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
3 certain wins in his next 5 tests is certainly the height of optimism @TWAS. Remember the train wrecks that were the games against Scotland and Samoa. Different circumstances, granted, but if circumstances (weather etc) conspire against the Wallabies, then I'm not sure we can claim USA and Fiji as certain wins. FIJI particularly was quite impressive in their PN win. Any complacency by the Wallabies could also have unwanted outcomes.
But sincerely, I hope you are proven right.
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