Big Al looking overseas - ARU says walk

[Gagger]

I'm trying to get my head around the drop-Baxter logic.

"He was shit, but lately good, so we should be fine about letting him go, and be happy with starting from scratch with someone else who's not ready at international level"

WTF!?!?! :nta:

I was down on him as much as anyone else the previous years, but he was a very big part of why we had a decent Euro tour. You all wanna piss that away?

Give Tahu a Rooster jumper and Al his cash.

 

[RugbyReg]

agree with Ditching Tahu and Lote for that matter.

But come on, lets not get carried away with Al. He's played 63 tests or something and, what, 5 good ones?

Better to have someone there learning the role now than in 2 years time when a 35 year old Al is off the pace, and lets face it, that's highly likely. For a prop that took 55 tests and I don't know how many Super Rugby games, his peak form can't be expected to hang around too long.

 

[disco]

Nah fuck these assholes(the players), the ARU don't have the cash of the euro clubs the whole world is struggling financially & these players want to walk because they don't get a pay rise.

Al Baxter has had one very good season out of five and the ARU spent a lot of time & money in making him a better player.

I'd be happy to flick Tahu for Baxter.

 

[Scotty]

He's obviously a smart guy off the field, but a slow learner on.

Noddy, isn't he an architect? That, in my book certainly does not qualify him as smart! :

(coming from a structural engineer)

 

[Scotty]

PS If he been consistently good for us for the last 3-4 years, I would be more dissapointed/angry with the ARU's decision, but who knows if he is going to keep the last 1-2 years form for another 2-3 years?

I also agree that the ARU should not be topping up Tahu, and should certainly not be paying Lote so much more than most other players.

 

[Biffo]

He's obviously a smart guy off the field, but a slow learner on.

Noddy, isn't he an architect? That, in my book certainly does not qualify him as smart! :

(coming from a structural engineer)

An architect, an engineer and a town planner were, over a few drinks, discussing who invented woman.

ARCHITECT: It was an architect. Look at the shape, the form, the symmetry; architectural genius.

ENGINEER: No, it was an engineer. Look at how all the moving parts are designed and inter-related so that woman can perform all her tasks; engineering excellence.

TOWN PLANNER: No, it was a town planner. Who else would put the playground right in the middle of the sewerage works?

 

[Red Beard]

Nah fuck these assholes(the players), the ARU don't have the cash of the euro clubs the whole world is struggling financially & these players want to walk because they don't get a pay rise.

Al Baxter has had one very good season out of five and the ARU spent a lot of time & money in making him a better player.
I'd be happy to flick Tahu for Baxter.

And his best season just happened to be last season so surely he is worth perservering with. Dont forget Carl Hayman was absolute gash in his debut test season got bent over his locks a few times. It wasnt until 2004 that he made it back and started to take control. Baxter has been dominant this year in S14, I certainly wouldnt show him the door if I was the ARU, that would be dire for the Wallabies. Lets face it you dont have anyone to replace him with. If Ben Castle is in the best four THs in Aussie, you guys are still not in a position of great depth.

 

[naza]

Nah fuck these assholes(the players), the ARU don't have the cash of the euro clubs the whole world is struggling financially & these players want to walk because they don't get a pay rise.

These assholes ? These assholes ? Wow, I can feel the love. And that's pretty much the message the ARU sent to Baxter by lowballing him and taking their sweet time getting back to him. This isn't the amateur era anymore - I'd like to see the ARU acting with more professionalism and class.

Who exactly do we value ? And what message does this send to young players about how much the ARU values tight forwards ?

 

[RugbyReg]

Who said Ben Castle was one of the top 4 THPs in Oz?

 

[Red Beard]

Who said Ben Castle was one of the top 4 THPs in Oz?

You have four S14 teams and therefore four starting tighthead props everyweek. If you were to rate the top four tightheads playing in Australia each week surely he must be in contention?

 

[RugbyReg]

Doesn't quite work like that. Tahs probably have three of the top in Al, Dunning and Palmer.

 

[Red Beard]

Doesn't quite work like that. Tahs probably have three of the top in Al, Dunning and Palmer.

I would seriously question that. Dunning a better tighthead? Not from what Ive seen of him. And Palmer is showing potential but has his L plates well and firmly screwed on. Surely if these guys are better THs they would want to leave the Tahs to cement a starting spot elsewhere and further their careers. If Fairbrother replaces Castle it certainly doesnt look like the Force are looking at any domestic options. The ARU have rocks in their heads if they dont understand the importance of having their best 60 players starting in S14 every week.

 

[Cutter]

I'd be happy for Baxter to be paid around the 3rd to 5th most money in the squad.

On that analysis, who should he be behind?

Giteau the wunderkind? Possibly. Who else? Smith is, imo, the best or second best player in the world in his position, we dont have many at that level. However there is quality back up for him in Pocock and, if necessary, Waugh. Mortlock should be on a pay packet that is winding down.

As such, I would say Baxter should be paid either the most or second most. He wont be of course, I reckon at least the following would be paid more:

1. Gits
2. Morty
3. Moore
4. Sharpe (on an old contract)
5. Smith
6. Lote

 

[barbarian]

Better to have someone there learning the role now than in 2 years time when a 35 year old Al is off the pace, and lets face it, that's highly likely. For a prop that took 55 tests and I don't know how many Super Rugby games, his peak form can't be expected to hang around too long.

What is there to learn? S14 and below is the place for player development, not tests. That has been proven time and time again. Throwing Dan Palmer into the Wallabies before he has had a decent S14 season under his belt (which was pretty much what happened with Baxter) will achieve the same result- 4 or 5 dodgy years with the possibility of a few good ones at the end.

I'm sure a replacement will be found, but I hate the idea of just saying "see you later" to a Wallaby player at his peak. If he was over the hill I would have no trouble with it, or if we had obvious replacements (as with Vickerman and Elsom).

 

[TOCC]

For those of you who keep praising Baxters Spring Tour form, i think maybe you need a refresher on the matches other then just England.

fast forward to 1:20 and watch the all mighty baxter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfRj90zEiqU

Also against Wales, our scrum was penalised to the shithouse and we were losing the ball on our own feed.


So what does that leave us with, one decent match on the Spring Tour, his Super14 form has always been pretty decent, so using this year as a indicator is about a fruitless as using the last 6 years s14 seasons.

 

[Cutter]

I have been very critical of Baxter in the past. However he has become a decent test tighthead prop and we dont have many of those.

I cant remember what it was, but there was something odd about that scrum and it was mentioned at the time as the reason for the pushover.

Regardless, he is our best tighthead and blokes like Weekes, Daly and Edwards arent ready for test rugby. Shepherdson may never be good enough, Dunning is coming back from a serious long term injury and is a band aid solution anyway. Who else is there?

 

[steiner]

Geez TOCC, one scrum doesn't make a season, nor even a match. This scrum aside I don't remember the Wallaby scrum being dominated in this match. Sometimes the French were on top, sometimes the Wallabies. A new prop being brought in for this match, Ben Alexander, a new combination front row, they don't plant their feet properly, or bind tightly enough, this can happen.

Baxter (and Dunning) have been embarrassed in the past, they both busted their arse and improved a lot. They need to be rewarded for this. What kind of message does this send to aspiring props?
Baxter also came a bit late to the propping ranks, being originally a loose forward, as I understand it. That and the fact that Australian props don't get the tough competition at the lower levels that other countries get can explain Baxter's later development. Baxter also works hard in general play.

Surely the Aru will wake up to themselves here, or Robbie Deans will step in. Totally flawed logic for them not to pay the props properly. Those shiny backs will not be shining unless someone's winning ball for them in the middle. So the backs won't be worth their quid anyway!.......Surely this is obvious!

 

[naza]

What kind of message does this send to aspiring props?
Surely the Aru will wake up to themselves here, or Robbie Deans will step in. Totally flawed logic for them not to pay the props properly. Those shiny backs will not be shining unless someone's winning ball for them in the middle. So the backs won't be worth their quid anyway!.......Surely this is obvious!

Not to John O'Neill, President of the Spin It Wide crowd.

Make that John O'Neill, President of the 'I don't let the coach know what's going on' club.

"I was as surprised as you when I read it, but it's often the way these days," Deans said. "There's not too much that's sacrosanct any more - a lot of these thing are often discussed in the public arena. Obviously Al's been a big servant of Australian rugby in the past and has got the capacity to be a big servant in the future as well.

"I'm not privy to players' contract details and I don't want to be, but obviously we want as many capable players as possible to be here in Australia."

 

[fatprop]

TOCC

We had Alexander starting in that match at LHP, a guy who hadn't started a S14 match, we did well considering

Throughout that tour we mixed up our scrum.

We played our best front row against Wales and England

Against Wales we lost Moore for 10 minutes in the first half and Wales have a very good scrum

Baxter isn't the worlds greatest THP by any means, but at the moment he is clearly the best we have. While we develop and blood the younger THPs, we need him to be there to take the heat.

 

[Red Beard]

Better to have someone there learning the role now than in 2 years time when a 35 year old Al is off the pace, and lets face it, that's highly likely. For a prop that took 55 tests and I don't know how many Super Rugby games, his peak form can't be expected to hang around too long.

What is there to learn? S14 and below is the place for player development, not tests. That has been proven time and time again. Throwing Dan Palmer into the Wallabies before he has had a decent S14 season under his belt (which was pretty much what happened with Baxter) will achieve the same result- 4 or 5 dodgy years with the possibility of a few good ones at the end.

I'm sure a replacement will be found, but I hate the idea of just saying "see you later" to a Wallaby player at his peak. If he was over the hill I would have no trouble with it, or if we had obvious replacements (as with Vickerman and Elsom).

While I totally agree with your point of view, its not the case here in NZ either. We have guys still learning their trade (trying to master basic positional skills) in the current All Black squad. In the 70s/80s guys could play six or seven seasons or NPC before becoming ABs, they were pretty experienced and battle hardened players by the time they got the AB callup.

Thesedays in the pro era the lifespan is much shorter. We now have physical behemoths playing test rugby in their early 20s well before they have properly learnt to think and play the game. How could the ABs in recent times have had at least three inside backs unable to master a basic skill like punting a ball (Umaga, Nonu, Tuitupou)? Why are they being taught to punt by a kicking coach while All Blacks? Something is not quite right with our system here. All international backs should be able to punt accurately off both feet IMO. And before some of these guys even hit their strap and reach their potential at test level they are being snapped up by Europan clubs and heading offshore.

I do still think props physically mature later in their careers but due to the high level and volume of rugby they play now (and specialist coaching) Im sure they become technically more proficent at a much younger age. Hayman became an All Black in 2001 but I didnt rate him at all as a test tighthead until 2004.