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Best Article on the ELVs this year

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Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Moses, while I agree absolutely with the general thrust of what you're saying, unions can't pick and choose which of the global 13 ELVs to implement. Everyone has them. The only differing unions are the SANZAR ones, who added on FKAGG for the S14 and 3N this year. The Boere have said that they want to drop FKAGG for next year and play the global 13 ELVs.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Thomond78 said:
Moses, while I agree absolutely with the general thrust of what you're saying, unions can't pick and choose which of the global 13 ELVs to implement. Everyone has them. The only differing unions are the SANZAR ones, who added on FKAGG for the S14 and 3N this year. The Boere have said that they want to drop FKAGG for next year and play the global 13 ELVs.

Yes they have, but citing that in isolation like that is very misleading Thomo.

What they have said is that because they will be playing the Lions without the FKAGG, they think it seems silly to switch back to them and then drop them again for the Lions tour.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
That's the thing, though, Cutter; they could easily have made that change, because they've done it before - this year, for example. The fact that they're not doing it this year, and extending that desire not to do it to the whole season by virtue of three tests makes me suspect that they're using the Lions tour as a convenient get-out clause.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Moses - the piecemeal introduction of laws or interpretations can have negative effects too. I think unless you trial all the ELVs at the same time, you lose the overall effect e.g. What's the point in being able to pull down mauls if you can't break off because truck n trailer is still in force?

The overall problem was the refs weren't able to enforce the Laws properly. I think the ELVs are better for refs (bugger the crowd and the players - they're cynics ;)) and if over time it improves their ability to let a game flow then bully for the ELVs!



Sully said:
sorry but there are no 130 kg 185 cm guys playing AFL

How many rugby players match those stats? :nta:
 
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formeropenside

Guest
NTA said:
Moses - the piecemeal introduction of laws or interpretations can have negative effects too. I think unless you trial all the ELVs at the same time, you lose the overall effect e.g. What's the point in being able to pull down mauls if you can't break off because truck n trailer is still in force?

The overall problem was the refs weren't able to enforce the Laws properly. I think the ELVs are better for refs (bugger the crowd and the players - they're cynics ;)) and if over time it improves their ability to let a game flow then bully for the ELVs!



Sully said:
sorry but there are no 130 kg 185 cm guys playing AFL

How many rugby players match those stats? :nta:

Rodney Blake was close at 191cm, Herman Hunt was 183cm but only 123kg. Dayna Edwards comes pretty close I think.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Thomond78 said:
That's the thing, though, Cutter; they could easily have made that change, because they've done it before - this year, for example. The fact that they're not doing it this year, and extending that desire not to do it to the whole season by virtue of three tests makes me suspect that they're using the Lions tour as a convenient get-out clause.

I disagree and that is not the reason the SARU has given for wanting to drop those laws. The switching around can be done but isnt ideal preparation for an important tour. Its ok to do it as a one off if its part of the transition but to yo yo back and forth takes time to adjust as Matfield et al showed in the 3N.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
My points was: rugby is not "unique" for body shapes and sizes. Aussie rules also covers this well. There are a lot more "small" men playing in the AFL than there is in world rugby as a percentage of players.

I agree to an extent, but would suggest that in rugby you would get a greater variance in BMI. In AFL you have a big variance in heights, but not really proportions.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Put it this way, Cutter - have the Boere said that they want to drop the FKAGG for one year only - that they want it back the year afterwards? Because you'd expect them to do that if they wanted it back, as otherwise, it'll be harder for those who want FKAGG to push against playing the same laws as everyone else.
 
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whocares

Guest
Scotty said:
My points was: rugby is not "unique" for body shapes and sizes. Aussie rules also covers this well. There are a lot more "small" men playing in the AFL than there is in world rugby as a percentage of players.

I agree to an extent, but would suggest that in rugby you would get a greater variance in BMI. In AFL you have a big variance in heights, but not really proportions.

BMI doesnt really mean that much anyway. I mean out of the touring squad there are only 2 who arent overwieght or obese.
O'Conner and Turner and even they're close.
even Barnes is overweight
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
NTA said:
Moses - the piecemeal introduction of laws or interpretations can have negative effects too. I think unless you trial all the ELVs at the same time, you lose the overall effect e.g. What's the point in being able to pull down mauls if you can't break off because truck n trailer is still in force?

The overall problem was the refs weren't able to enforce the Laws properly. I think the ELVs are better for refs (bugger the crowd and the players - they're cynics ;)) and if over time it improves their ability to let a game flow then bully for the ELVs!



Sully said:
sorry but there are no 130 kg 185 cm guys playing AFL

How many rugby players match those stats? :nta:
about 2 in every team
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Thomond78 said:
Put it this way, Cutter - have the Boere said that they want to drop the FKAGG for one year only - that they want it back the year afterwards? Because you'd expect them to do that if they wanted it back, as otherwise, it'll be harder for those who want FKAGG to push against playing the same laws as everyone else.

Quote from Oregan Hoskins, president of the South African Rugby Union:

?We are playing the Absa Currie Cup under the global ELVs, we will play the Springbok end of year tour matches under the global ELVs and, most importantly, we will play the British and Irish Lions under the global ELVs next year,Australia and New Zealand will also be playing their internationals under the global ELVs this year and next.

?For consistency?s sake and to allow our Springboks the smoothest possible preparations for next year?s crucial series against the Lions it is vital that we play under one set of Laws.

?We have had five sets of ELVs apply in South Africa this season and it has been confusing to the public and even to the referees, who have shouldered a massive burden. One set of laws for all matches is the only way to go.?

?We went with the hybrid ELVs for this year?s Vodacom Tri-Nations for the sake of consistency after playing them in the Vodacom Super 14. For the sake of consistency we must now join with the rest of the IRB in playing the global ELVs.

?I trust we will be able to reach a consensus with our partners when we meet but if that is not possible then we may have to go to arbitration on the matter.?

Its about consistency not about a preferred set of laws. This reflects on the IRBs inconsistent roll out not on the SARU's views on whether the free kick sanctions are preferred. If everyone else was playing with the free kicks would they have come out and said this? To me, it sounds as though the SARU doesnt care which set of laws applies, as long as everyone is playing under the same set.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
It's the lack of "we'll go back to the current ones, don't worry" is what I was pointing out - the arbitration bit is pretty heavy duty "Do it voluntarily, or else we'll do our best to make you do it forcibly".

But no question about the roll-out having been shite; I think everyone agrees on that.

Nick, the thing is, you could always see it coming that the refs would bottle it. People will always go for the easier option. What did it for me, finally and forever, was when I saw in the last Bledisloe that at about the 20 minute mark, there'd been 25 free kicks, no penalties, no-one binned. Fuck that for a game of toy soldiers.

Dayglo must have been so pissed off it wasn't introduced years ago; hell, that sort of situation was made for the man. :lmao:
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I'm still waiting for Paddy to call and offer me a job. Unfit? Yes. Prejudicial? Definitely - but at least I hate everyone equally :)
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Given that Nigel Owens appeared to have spent his whole pre-season in the pie shop, I'd give the bould Paddy a ring again, Nick; you might well be in with a shot, and you can't be worse than the Scots. ;)
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Sanction THIS

Thanks to Spook for posting Bills' article in the first place

Last week Moses made some great points about how random the roll out of the ELVs seems to have been. It looks so bad that I can only think its a ruse employed by the usual dinosaurs to try and scupper them. Thanks to those still stuck in the 70's, the mess that has been created around these experimental law variations can appear confusing. To me though, it's pretty simple.

[Through the rest of this post I'm going to rip a few quotes out of the http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/elvs-the-great-divide-943329.html"]best article summarising the ELV shmozzle that I've seen so far[/URL] - and it's by a Northern Hemispherian, Peter Bills.]

I say it's simple because at the end of the day of all the ELVs, only one enables the pace and structure of the game to get out of the pit it been in the last few world cups, where whole matches and competitions are decided by fishing for penalty goals. This remedy is the 'sanctions' clause.

This is where instead of the flow of the game being interrupted and 3 points handed out for any one of multiple infringements you can find at a breakdown, a free kick is given. The winners of the free can keep their momentum going with a tap and go or consolidate possession with a scrum.

There are a range of objections that northern hemisphere fossils come up with against the sanction clause:

1. "It destroys the structure of the game". Bollocks. After just a few rounds S14 teams had figured out that the quick tap isn't always the best move and started employing the new, more dangerous scrum at appropriate times. A fast game can still have structure.

2. "It's a cheats charter" (said in a bitch-tits whine). Only if poorly reffed. A good ref can switch to yellows and full arms at his discretion. Up to now they haven't done so consistently through games - not just on a trigger finger for the first 5 minutes then forget about it

3. "Rugby isn't just about scoring tries - these games becoming meaningless try fests" Well if it wasn't then why did they give a try the maximum number of points? 9-6 wins don't tend to feature on too many "greatest game" montages for a good reason. And while there were more tries in this years 3N's, there was obviously no less intensity

4. "It's become aerial ping-pong under the ELVs" Where the f**k were you during the RWC last year? Standard tactic was hoof it down field and chase the penalty. The short-arm hasn't increased kicking. If time in the air has gone up, it'll be because of the no taking back into the 22 rule, not the sanction rule

But I'm not alone in spotting this as the most crucial ELV. Witness how, out of all the Euro comps, including the Heineken Cup, only the French Top 14 has begrudgingly given it a go. The 'logic' being if they (the north) don't try it, "you can't make us keep it". What a way to run a professional sport.

To clarify, it wasn't John O'Neill who thought the ELVs up from a dark castle crypt somewhere,

the impetus to look at possible changes to the game came from a group of the world's leading coaches.

They asked the IRB about the possibility of making future changes to certain laws, so a conference was staged in Auckland in January 2004 entitled 'The Playing of the Game'. As a result of play at the 2003 Rugby World Cup, these men felt that some of the laws were too complicated and there was too much uncertainty surrounding key areas. Coaches like Clive Woodward, Warren Gatland, Ian McGeechan, Rod Mcqueen, Eddie O'Sullivan and Andy Robinson - some serious hitters, in other words.

Specific areas mentioned were the breakdown, ways of defending the maul, the numbers at the line-out, the scrum engagement and the lack of space for attacking plays. They went so far as to say that in its current form, the maul was legally impossible to stop.

As a result of the conference, the IRB set up a Laws Project Group. It included former coaches Pierre Villepreux of France, Ian McIntosh of South Africa, Rod Macqueen of Australia and Richie Dixon of Scotland, plus IRB referee supremo Paddy O'Brien.

O'Neills crime has been to try and keep the IRB, and the unions below it, to stick to their word and trial what this group developed.

In the end I'll be gobsmacked if all ELVs go through so the question is; which ones will? My hope is that the shape of the laws of rugby evolve to take account of the seismic changes the professional era has brought. To do this the sanction changes must happen. I would sacrifice all the rest of the ELVs for it to be so. My fear, is that it will be the exact opposite, and rugby will continue to stagnate.
 
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