Beale and Chisholm into Wallaby squad
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Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Re: Beale and Chisolm into Wallaby squad
Agree with Lindommer about Beale. It's a great chance for him. He won't play in 3N but being in that environment will be a good experience even it it's just carrying tackle bags and bringing out the drink bottles.
We all know that Beale was not brought into replace Mortlock. Cooper Ashley-Cooper and Cross can cover the 13 spot. He's more of a building project that doesn't have design or building approval yet.
As for remarks on Tyrone Smith; his skill set makes him a specialist 12 for pro rugby. Sure he plays 13 for Manly but it's because Sefania is a specialist 12 also. You can say that you have seen him in the 13 position at the Brumbies from time to time because of injuries to others, but that doesn't signify much.
We have all seen Smith Jr. do some good things on the park, but his main attribute is to attempt breaks in traffic, to burst through tackles or offload the ball, league style, at the tackle. Whilst he is not a pure crashballer, the day of such an animal, born of the All Blacks in the 1960's, is dead, or at least dying. Modern defences have given him a mortal blow to the extent that a professional player who, realistically, can play 12 only, had better be a sure starter for his team as he won't have much value on the bench.
To be a good international 12 these days you have to be of one of two types. The Mauger type who can play like a second five-eight, or a runner who can take the outside break on his man and dish the ball out before the tackle so he can back up.
Barnes played the Mauger game perfectly in the Sydney Bledisloe last year and Giteau at his best with the 12 jersey was a good example of the 2nd type. You will hardly ever find a 12 who can play both games at the elite level though for Oz Horan came closest. Maybe we have to visit Ireland and get some of Mike Gibson's DNA to breed the perfect 12 - though he could play with any jersey that had double figures on the back.
But I digress.
It is a shame that Morty is out, but we have to doubt if he is going to be around for the next RWC; so I'm looking forward to seeing AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) having a good stint at 13. We started saying that he was Morty's long term replacement a few years ago and it's time to see if our past thoughts had merit.
And AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s likely move to 13 may mean that the Rabbit starts a Bledisloe at 15. He was the only back who showed any spark at Newlands, apart from Giteau when he scored his try, and his surety under the high ball was good to see. The problem with Rabbit is that he has hundreds of mistakes to make in his international career and there are always more of them in the early days; but it is a price we will have to pay.
Agree with Lindommer about Beale. It's a great chance for him. He won't play in 3N but being in that environment will be a good experience even it it's just carrying tackle bags and bringing out the drink bottles.
We all know that Beale was not brought into replace Mortlock. Cooper Ashley-Cooper and Cross can cover the 13 spot. He's more of a building project that doesn't have design or building approval yet.
As for remarks on Tyrone Smith; his skill set makes him a specialist 12 for pro rugby. Sure he plays 13 for Manly but it's because Sefania is a specialist 12 also. You can say that you have seen him in the 13 position at the Brumbies from time to time because of injuries to others, but that doesn't signify much.
We have all seen Smith Jr. do some good things on the park, but his main attribute is to attempt breaks in traffic, to burst through tackles or offload the ball, league style, at the tackle. Whilst he is not a pure crashballer, the day of such an animal, born of the All Blacks in the 1960's, is dead, or at least dying. Modern defences have given him a mortal blow to the extent that a professional player who, realistically, can play 12 only, had better be a sure starter for his team as he won't have much value on the bench.
To be a good international 12 these days you have to be of one of two types. The Mauger type who can play like a second five-eight, or a runner who can take the outside break on his man and dish the ball out before the tackle so he can back up.
Barnes played the Mauger game perfectly in the Sydney Bledisloe last year and Giteau at his best with the 12 jersey was a good example of the 2nd type. You will hardly ever find a 12 who can play both games at the elite level though for Oz Horan came closest. Maybe we have to visit Ireland and get some of Mike Gibson's DNA to breed the perfect 12 - though he could play with any jersey that had double figures on the back.
But I digress.
It is a shame that Morty is out, but we have to doubt if he is going to be around for the next RWC; so I'm looking forward to seeing AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) having a good stint at 13. We started saying that he was Morty's long term replacement a few years ago and it's time to see if our past thoughts had merit.
And AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s likely move to 13 may mean that the Rabbit starts a Bledisloe at 15. He was the only back who showed any spark at Newlands, apart from Giteau when he scored his try, and his surety under the high ball was good to see. The problem with Rabbit is that he has hundreds of mistakes to make in his international career and there are always more of them in the early days; but it is a price we will have to pay.
Scotty
David Codey (61)
JOC (James O'Connor)'s counter attack was very good, but the most impressive things were his taking of the high ball and that tremendous try saving tackle on the man mountain Spies.
As Lee says he is going to make a few mistakes here and there, but I have no doubt that he will come out a world class player in a few years. I very much doubt the ability of Beale and Cooper to do the same - both need to hard the f up in contact and start performing consistenly before they can do so - and there hasn't been much indication of this yet.
That is why having Beale in the squad is a very poor call IMO. It is his attitude that needs to change, and that is something he has to do for himself, coaches can't do that for him.
As Lee says he is going to make a few mistakes here and there, but I have no doubt that he will come out a world class player in a few years. I very much doubt the ability of Beale and Cooper to do the same - both need to hard the f up in contact and start performing consistenly before they can do so - and there hasn't been much indication of this yet.
That is why having Beale in the squad is a very poor call IMO. It is his attitude that needs to change, and that is something he has to do for himself, coaches can't do that for him.
Cutter
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Re: Beale and Chisolm into Wallaby squad
Lee, I have to say I disagree with your analysis here. The best 12s over the last 12-18 months have been, in no particular order:
1. JdV (though he is out of form at the moment)
2. Ma'a Nonu (again not in top form)
3. Jamie Roberts
None of those three is a 2nd 5 in the way Mauger was. Each of them, particularly Roberts and Nonu, are far more direct and to classify them as "outside break" players is wrong. Notwithstanding modern defences, there is still a place for a 12 who runs good lines at the defence and who considers as one of his core duties the job of crossing the advantage line. He must also be able to distribute to a degree, as each of the 3 above can do. Smith has fast feet meaning he can break the defensive line other than through brute strength. His defence is very good, he has some ball playing skills and his kicking game could develop.
Smith may not be the next Tim Horan, but he may provide a variation on our current options.
Southern Districts I believe.
Lee Grant said:
Lee, I have to say I disagree with your analysis here. The best 12s over the last 12-18 months have been, in no particular order:
1. JdV (though he is out of form at the moment)
2. Ma'a Nonu (again not in top form)
3. Jamie Roberts
None of those three is a 2nd 5 in the way Mauger was. Each of them, particularly Roberts and Nonu, are far more direct and to classify them as "outside break" players is wrong. Notwithstanding modern defences, there is still a place for a 12 who runs good lines at the defence and who considers as one of his core duties the job of crossing the advantage line. He must also be able to distribute to a degree, as each of the 3 above can do. Smith has fast feet meaning he can break the defensive line other than through brute strength. His defence is very good, he has some ball playing skills and his kicking game could develop.
Smith may not be the next Tim Horan, but he may provide a variation on our current options.
louie said:
Southern Districts I believe.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Cutter - well said, but they are outstanding international players not just good ones.
It may seem to be sophistry, but for a player of Smith's type he would have to be as good as Nonu and Roberts is, or will be as good, and he is not and will not be. Even Nonu had to change his game and last year he added stuff to his crashball style. Though he is off the boil this year he was one of the most improved players in 2008.
Roberts is the form 12 in the world and is an exception to everything - a fullback who was moved by Gatland into the Wales midfield, and thrived.
JdV is another exception; more of the good footie player who could play in a few spots but settled on 12.
Those 3 players started outside the 12 position and moved in. Smith will have to start as a 12 unless there are injuries to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Cross to add to Mortlock's.
Since Smith is trying to get into international rugby we shouldn't compare him with those players you mentioned, but I confess that I should have worded my previous post more circumspectly. Perhaps I should have written: "To be able to break into international rugby as a 12 these days ...... "
It would be right too I reckon. I don't think there will too many new 12s who will do well in international rugby if they seek contact too much, but if that big Frenchman succeeds I will have to eat my words.
It may seem to be sophistry, but for a player of Smith's type he would have to be as good as Nonu and Roberts is, or will be as good, and he is not and will not be. Even Nonu had to change his game and last year he added stuff to his crashball style. Though he is off the boil this year he was one of the most improved players in 2008.
Roberts is the form 12 in the world and is an exception to everything - a fullback who was moved by Gatland into the Wales midfield, and thrived.
JdV is another exception; more of the good footie player who could play in a few spots but settled on 12.
Those 3 players started outside the 12 position and moved in. Smith will have to start as a 12 unless there are injuries to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Cross to add to Mortlock's.
Since Smith is trying to get into international rugby we shouldn't compare him with those players you mentioned, but I confess that I should have worded my previous post more circumspectly. Perhaps I should have written: "To be able to break into international rugby as a 12 these days ...... "
It would be right too I reckon. I don't think there will too many new 12s who will do well in international rugby if they seek contact too much, but if that big Frenchman succeeds I will have to eat my words.
Cutter
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I think Bastereaud has been banned from playing for France for 1 or 2 years. He is capable on the outside break as well but his first thought is contact.
As to whether the defences are now sophisticated enough to deal with direct 12s, I dont think it makes a difference. If you pick the right angle, time your run well and do enough with your feet or hips to cause the defence to hesitate, you will always create go forward and therefore space.
Its harder in any era for a Nathan Grey or Mike Tindall style player to break into a team because they offer less versatility and a limited skill set. However, the good ones still get there and Smith should be considered an option particularly as his skillset isnt as limited as some (albeit he may not yet execute that limited skillset as effectively). ie dont write off the international crash ball specialist provided he is good at it and has other skills.
As to whether the defences are now sophisticated enough to deal with direct 12s, I dont think it makes a difference. If you pick the right angle, time your run well and do enough with your feet or hips to cause the defence to hesitate, you will always create go forward and therefore space.
Its harder in any era for a Nathan Grey or Mike Tindall style player to break into a team because they offer less versatility and a limited skill set. However, the good ones still get there and Smith should be considered an option particularly as his skillset isnt as limited as some (albeit he may not yet execute that limited skillset as effectively). ie dont write off the international crash ball specialist provided he is good at it and has other skills.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
With Smith or any new international 12 we would argue about whether they have those "other skills" or not and if they do to what extent and, of a sudden, they have gone outside the definition.
Things are not black and white in these discussions and in this case we have shades of Grey.
I guess my point is that a new international 12 these days has to have a better skill set that what I reckon Smith has, but that he could have been more successful in the past - before the malign influence of Muggleton spread.
Geez - you're up late Cutter. I forgot - are you offshore? I'm an insomniac.
Things are not black and white in these discussions and in this case we have shades of Grey.
I guess my point is that a new international 12 these days has to have a better skill set that what I reckon Smith has, but that he could have been more successful in the past - before the malign influence of Muggleton spread.
Geez - you're up late Cutter. I forgot - are you offshore? I'm an insomniac.
I'm with cutter on the T. Smith debate. The guy will consistently beat his man, knows when to offload and is devastating in counter-attack. Nonu doesn't have that skill set FFS.
He's covered from inside to wing last year. On top of that he started kicking this S14, very decently too. I would have thought that Rookie of the year 2008 would have been worth a look.
He's covered from inside to wing last year. On top of that he started kicking this S14, very decently too. I would have thought that Rookie of the year 2008 would have been worth a look.
S
Spook
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Beale is there because he can cover fullback
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