B
Blitzbok
Guest
:lmao::lmao::lmao:
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:lmao::lmao::lmao:
R
RuggerBugger
Guest
Good thread here and just what I was looking for! Could one of you gentlemen please explain to me what unders/overs lines are and what blockers/sliders are? Not a whole lot out there and I'm pretty confused. Thanks gents.
I you want the definitive answer, Bob Dwyer's coaching manuals
http://www.bobdwyerrugby.com/coaching-manuals/manual/sample.html
http://www.bobdwyerrugby.com/
http://www.bobdwyerrugby.com/coaching-manuals/manual/sample.html
http://www.bobdwyerrugby.com/
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RuggerBugger
Guest
Thanks for the link FatProp (love the avatar lmao!). I need to sign up with a membership though :s I'll check that out at a later time. Anyone got a brief overview of what those things are exactly?
Ash
Michael Lynagh (62)
Off the top of my head:
Overs line - Run straight, then close to the line/receiving a pass change direction as if taking an outside break, or away from the ball carrier
Unders - Opposite of overs, run straight, then close to the line/receiving a pass change direction back towards the ball carrier line
Blocker - Player behind can start inside the blocker and drift outside by the time they receive the pass, and/or blocker can also drift inside the the guy behind (that is, the blocker and the guy behind cross), leaving the passer with the choice of hitting either player
Overs line - Run straight, then close to the line/receiving a pass change direction as if taking an outside break, or away from the ball carrier
Unders - Opposite of overs, run straight, then close to the line/receiving a pass change direction back towards the ball carrier line
Blocker - Player behind can start inside the blocker and drift outside by the time they receive the pass, and/or blocker can also drift inside the the guy behind (that is, the blocker and the guy behind cross), leaving the passer with the choice of hitting either player
R
RuggerBugger
Guest
Okay, so let me see if I've got this...
Overs/Unders
So these two are types of running lines? Unders are a running line targetting the inside shoulder of the defender and Overs one that targets the outside shoulder of the defender. I think I got that much. I think I read somewhere that you the support players run the same line as the ball carrier but I saw in a vid here Australia have their 12 and 13 running opposites (12 running an Unders and 13 running an Overs) and this had the effect of creating a hole for 11 to run through as the strike runner. 12 then continued his run and took an inside pass from 11 after he had drawn in the last defender. I see the effect of this, to kinda draw defenders. It is more obvious with that play I talked about because 12 and 10 drew two defenders close together and 13 drew one in the other to create the hole. If the support runners run the same line as the ball carrier then isn't that easy to stop? I don't see why having them all run an unders or overs would be useful. Can someone tell me more about this?
Blockers/Sliders
The target of these two are two disrupt the defence by creating options that confuse defenders as both runners cross each other. They are also running lines like Overs/Unders are. So the players running these lines must always be ready to take the ball and the ball carrier reads the defender to see how they respond to these lines and chooses one as the strike. I think I've got that down alright. So is the blocker specifically a wide play and the slider a close play? I heard on a forum a while back guys talking about the blocker in relation to "the second defender". I don't really know then if the slider would target the third defender. A little clarification on that one? And you could target the first defender right? I mean, what if your 9 is the ball carrier and the 10 and 12 cross? What will this be called now?
Okay folks I think that about raps that up. Your thoughts anyone?
Overs/Unders
So these two are types of running lines? Unders are a running line targetting the inside shoulder of the defender and Overs one that targets the outside shoulder of the defender. I think I got that much. I think I read somewhere that you the support players run the same line as the ball carrier but I saw in a vid here Australia have their 12 and 13 running opposites (12 running an Unders and 13 running an Overs) and this had the effect of creating a hole for 11 to run through as the strike runner. 12 then continued his run and took an inside pass from 11 after he had drawn in the last defender. I see the effect of this, to kinda draw defenders. It is more obvious with that play I talked about because 12 and 10 drew two defenders close together and 13 drew one in the other to create the hole. If the support runners run the same line as the ball carrier then isn't that easy to stop? I don't see why having them all run an unders or overs would be useful. Can someone tell me more about this?
Blockers/Sliders
The target of these two are two disrupt the defence by creating options that confuse defenders as both runners cross each other. They are also running lines like Overs/Unders are. So the players running these lines must always be ready to take the ball and the ball carrier reads the defender to see how they respond to these lines and chooses one as the strike. I think I've got that down alright. So is the blocker specifically a wide play and the slider a close play? I heard on a forum a while back guys talking about the blocker in relation to "the second defender". I don't really know then if the slider would target the third defender. A little clarification on that one? And you could target the first defender right? I mean, what if your 9 is the ball carrier and the 10 and 12 cross? What will this be called now?
Okay folks I think that about raps that up. Your thoughts anyone?
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
RB - here are some simple diagrams of the running lines (excuse the scale).
First an Unders (which as you say targets the inside shoulder of defenders). If A2 runs an Unders line slightly ahead of A3, then D2 may move with A2 exposing a gap between D2 and D3 that A3 could exploit also running an Unders line with the ball being thrown by A1 to A3 behind A2.
The same applies with an Overs (which as you say targets the outside shoulder of defenders). In this case A3 runs their line first and if D3 follows them, the hole for A2 opens up also running an Overs line.
This is why both players run the same line.
If A2 runs an Unders and A3 runs an Overs you are trying to get D2 moving towards A2 and A3 moving towards A3 - hence the hole opens up between D2 and D3 as per the video you've seen previously on the site detailing one of the Wallabies moves.
A Blocker is shown below with A3 running a big Unders line first and crossing in front of A2. What you are hoping here is that D3 follows A3 and then A2 can receive the ball behind A3 and run a big Overs line into the whole left by D3.
However most teams know what a Blocker is and in fact most teams call it the same name. If the defence recognises the line and D3 leaves A3 alone because they assume A2 will be getting the ball, the ball can be thrown to A3 who runs into the hole between D2 and D3. Who gets the ball depends on what the defence does early so a Blocker is not always a wide play - it can in fact be a close play to A3 on the unders line.
The opposite of a Blocker is normally called a Roach where A2 runs a big Overs line first in front of A3 and A3 runs a big Unders line behind A2. In this instance you are hoping that D2 follows A2 across and A3 can then receive the ball and run into the hole left between D1 and D2. Once again if D2 recognises the call and/or the running line they may hold so there is no gap for A3 but then the ball goes to A2 who goes into the gap between D2 and D3.
Importantly, these are not backs moves/running lines. Forwards are now expected to execute exactly the same moves/running lines and be able to fill any of the attacking roles. Also, they are not necessarily first phase moves. They work just as well in later phases.
First an Unders (which as you say targets the inside shoulder of defenders). If A2 runs an Unders line slightly ahead of A3, then D2 may move with A2 exposing a gap between D2 and D3 that A3 could exploit also running an Unders line with the ball being thrown by A1 to A3 behind A2.
The same applies with an Overs (which as you say targets the outside shoulder of defenders). In this case A3 runs their line first and if D3 follows them, the hole for A2 opens up also running an Overs line.
This is why both players run the same line.
If A2 runs an Unders and A3 runs an Overs you are trying to get D2 moving towards A2 and A3 moving towards A3 - hence the hole opens up between D2 and D3 as per the video you've seen previously on the site detailing one of the Wallabies moves.
A Blocker is shown below with A3 running a big Unders line first and crossing in front of A2. What you are hoping here is that D3 follows A3 and then A2 can receive the ball behind A3 and run a big Overs line into the whole left by D3.
However most teams know what a Blocker is and in fact most teams call it the same name. If the defence recognises the line and D3 leaves A3 alone because they assume A2 will be getting the ball, the ball can be thrown to A3 who runs into the hole between D2 and D3. Who gets the ball depends on what the defence does early so a Blocker is not always a wide play - it can in fact be a close play to A3 on the unders line.
The opposite of a Blocker is normally called a Roach where A2 runs a big Overs line first in front of A3 and A3 runs a big Unders line behind A2. In this instance you are hoping that D2 follows A2 across and A3 can then receive the ball and run into the hole left between D1 and D2. Once again if D2 recognises the call and/or the running line they may hold so there is no gap for A3 but then the ball goes to A2 who goes into the gap between D2 and D3.
Importantly, these are not backs moves/running lines. Forwards are now expected to execute exactly the same moves/running lines and be able to fill any of the attacking roles. Also, they are not necessarily first phase moves. They work just as well in later phases.
R
RuggerBugger
Guest
Wow! Thanks for taking time to post those illustrations 
I get the idea with the overs/unders now. So depth and timing on your run would be a factor as well I see.
The Blockers and Sliders (Roach) still confuse me a bit. I have been working from this snippet I picked up a while back which is different from what you posted.
From what I have both attackers target one defender. So, in essence it's more about the idea of the running structure? The Blocker having A3 attack the inside shoulder of the defender and the Slider/Roach have A2 attack the outside shoulder of the defender? So all examples seen are just variations of the running structure?
I get the idea with the overs/unders now. So depth and timing on your run would be a factor as well I see.
The Blockers and Sliders (Roach) still confuse me a bit. I have been working from this snippet I picked up a while back which is different from what you posted.
From what I have both attackers target one defender. So, in essence it's more about the idea of the running structure? The Blocker having A3 attack the inside shoulder of the defender and the Slider/Roach have A2 attack the outside shoulder of the defender? So all examples seen are just variations of the running structure?
C
Cave Dweller
Guest
Counter attack dominates try scoring in the modern game
Eddie Jones have a good point about linkage
Eddie Jones have a good point about linkage
http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/97-linkage-between-the-scrumhalf-flyhalf-by-eddie-jones
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
Wow! Thanks for taking time to post those illustrations
I get the idea with the overs/unders now. So depth and timing on your run would be a factor as well I see.
The Blockers and Sliders (Roach) still confuse me a bit. I have been working from this snippet I picked up a while back which is different from what you posted.
From what I have both attackers target one defender. So, in essence it's more about the idea of the running structure? The Blocker having A3 attack the inside shoulder of the defender and the Slider/Roach have A2 attack the outside shoulder of the defender? So all examples seen are just variations of the running structure?
Nothing wrong with the options you've shown but they are fairly conservative. If you're faced with the defence of a professional team this may be all you can achieve but if you're faced with an amateur team defence my experience is that you can get two defenders to follow one attacker by applying a more aggresive line from the initial runner.
In the case of a "Blocker" if A3 runs a harder unders line at the inside shoulder of D2, there is no doubt D2 will focus on A3 and if D3 follows A3 as well, happy days for A2. You're working on defenders focusing on their man and not letting him get away - this is what most backline coaches will tell their players to focus on at amateur level. At professional level with higher skilled players a zone defence will be more prevalent and you may have to focus on trying to target one defender.
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
Wow! Thanks for taking time to post those illustrations
I get the idea with the overs/unders now. So depth and timing on your run would be a factor as well I see.
Depth and timing are more important in attack than any other factor. With depth and timing you can run a straight line and still beat a defender. With all the angles in the world, if you don't maintain depth and get your timing right, you're wasting your time.
TSR
Andrew Slack (58)
A couple of points I would add to the above -
- coach to the level of the players. No point spending hours teaching running lines if the players catch pass skills aren't up to scratch (in saying that it is much easier to pass to a player who knows how to put themselves in the right position and to hit a hole).
- cover the basics - this means in defence you need to make sure each player can tackle individually (there is a very good clip on you tube with Pat Lam doing a defence session
.
You also need a defence structure, suitable to the level of your players, and every player needs to understand and be disciplined in performing their role
- all your backs should be able to ruck and maul effectively. One of the reasons NZ does so well is that their centres in particular (and most of their backs generally) are great at the breakdown
- players should do basic catch pass drills at every training session. Start basic and increase the pressure. You'll be amazed both how quickly most improve
- practice decision making - when you do drills, vary where the defenders come from and throw in distractions (sometimes without warning) to make them have to react. As they improve, pressure their decision more and more (eg increase the number of defenders or decrease the space to the defenders)
- do lots of loaded attack - eg 6 on 3 in playing across the field in a 20 or 30 metre wide zone. Give them 3 touches (two hand touch) to get to the other side. Make them start again every mistake. Excellent fitness as well as catch/draw/pass/support practice.
Finally, to add to some of the earlier comments, the analysis done on this site is excellent. It is worth getting your players to watch it as well. And Scott's last tip regarding timing is spot on as well. Training has to have a certain amount of repeatition - first unopposed, then opposed, to get timing right. (I should at this point say thanks to GAGR because I have made great use of the clips/analysis done on here)
A good way to see running lines in action are on You tube clips. This is an excellent clip -
Hope this helps.
- coach to the level of the players. No point spending hours teaching running lines if the players catch pass skills aren't up to scratch (in saying that it is much easier to pass to a player who knows how to put themselves in the right position and to hit a hole).
- cover the basics - this means in defence you need to make sure each player can tackle individually (there is a very good clip on you tube with Pat Lam doing a defence session
You also need a defence structure, suitable to the level of your players, and every player needs to understand and be disciplined in performing their role
- all your backs should be able to ruck and maul effectively. One of the reasons NZ does so well is that their centres in particular (and most of their backs generally) are great at the breakdown
- players should do basic catch pass drills at every training session. Start basic and increase the pressure. You'll be amazed both how quickly most improve
- practice decision making - when you do drills, vary where the defenders come from and throw in distractions (sometimes without warning) to make them have to react. As they improve, pressure their decision more and more (eg increase the number of defenders or decrease the space to the defenders)
- do lots of loaded attack - eg 6 on 3 in playing across the field in a 20 or 30 metre wide zone. Give them 3 touches (two hand touch) to get to the other side. Make them start again every mistake. Excellent fitness as well as catch/draw/pass/support practice.
Finally, to add to some of the earlier comments, the analysis done on this site is excellent. It is worth getting your players to watch it as well. And Scott's last tip regarding timing is spot on as well. Training has to have a certain amount of repeatition - first unopposed, then opposed, to get timing right. (I should at this point say thanks to GAGR because I have made great use of the clips/analysis done on here)
A good way to see running lines in action are on You tube clips. This is an excellent clip -
Hope this helps.
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
That's a great clip and at 1.50 there's a good example of a "Blocker" with the more agressive angle I showed before and the front runner receiving the ball as A3 stays wide.
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
Here's the Waratahs using Blocker last weekend against the Force. A2 (Barnes) and A3 (Horne) run the more aggressive lines I outlined above and it worked as Barnes gets outside his defender. If the ball had gone to him it would have been a try in the corner for the winger outside him.
However, the Waratahs added in another attacker (AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)) running into the hole created by A3 (Horne) running at D2. I can't see how that is ever going to work as A3 will always block D2 - that's the whole point of that running line from A3. The block on D2 by A3 is irrelevant if the ball goes to A2 (Barnes) as D2 will never be impeded from tackling A2.
However, the Waratahs added in another attacker (AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)) running into the hole created by A3 (Horne) running at D2. I can't see how that is ever going to work as A3 will always block D2 - that's the whole point of that running line from A3. The block on D2 by A3 is irrelevant if the ball goes to A2 (Barnes) as D2 will never be impeded from tackling A2.
R
RuggerBugger
Guest
Thanks for you help guys! Scott this has been incredible, I wish I found this site years ago. Have you ever coached?
Right, just a couple more questions if you don't mind. Is there anymore to know about running lines? I've got a grasp on various moves like switches, circle balls and the like so that isnt a problem. Gotta watch more rugger and see it all in action after that.
Right, just a couple more questions if you don't mind. Is there anymore to know about running lines? I've got a grasp on various moves like switches, circle balls and the like so that isnt a problem. Gotta watch more rugger and see it all in action after that.
TSR
Andrew Slack (58)
RB - my tip - don't over complicate it. If you are starting with guys who do not currently know how to do under/overs/blockers ect, don't try and introduce too much too quickly.
Some suggestions - start with drawing and passing - get your players to do 2 on 1s and stress that you are looking for 100% success rates. Make sure the ball carrier is turning the defenders shoulder away from the support runner and be very strict on forward passes because this means the support runner is getting their depth or timing (or both) right (if you are coaching adults, make them do push ups every time there is a forward pass)
- progress to 2 on 2s with the support runner running an unders line. The support runner should start by attacking the space on the outside shoulder before jinking back at the space between the defenders (their defenders inside shoulder). It is easier to beat the defender on the inside once they are sliding across. Again be very strict on them attacking the outside shoulder first. The ball carrier should stay straight to hold their defender.
- then introduce blocker plays as an extension of your unders line. Eg - I would use the example above with the outside centre running the unders line in front of the inside centre. When we practice this we always start with the 13 slightly in front of the 12. Also, try bringing the blind side winger behind the 12 with the 12 running an unders line back towards the 10. This is a great way to get your blind side winger involved. (The other good variation I like is for the 12 to run unders and the blind side winger to provide an option on the 10s inside shoulder. The blind side winger does have to be very conscious that the defence is coming from his inside though and if they read it he may get blindsided).
- finally I would try a switch or dummy switch with the 10 switching with the 12 and having the 13 outside in support. The 10 can either give the ball to the 12 or dummy to them and feed the 13 straightening the attack. Make sure the 10 & 12 run a bit of an S - they run straight then angle then straighten again. Don't let them start running across straight away.
With your blocker plays and the switch/dummy switch, I would practice these as 3 on 2s. Try and emphasis to the ball carrier that either receiver is always and option, as is them dummying and going themselves. A key part of the drill is teaching players to read the defenders and hit the free man.
I think this is probably enough (maybe more than enough) if your players are just starting out with unders/blockers etc. When they can complete these to a high level of success, look to add some more variation.
Hope this makes sense/helps.
Some suggestions - start with drawing and passing - get your players to do 2 on 1s and stress that you are looking for 100% success rates. Make sure the ball carrier is turning the defenders shoulder away from the support runner and be very strict on forward passes because this means the support runner is getting their depth or timing (or both) right (if you are coaching adults, make them do push ups every time there is a forward pass)
- progress to 2 on 2s with the support runner running an unders line. The support runner should start by attacking the space on the outside shoulder before jinking back at the space between the defenders (their defenders inside shoulder). It is easier to beat the defender on the inside once they are sliding across. Again be very strict on them attacking the outside shoulder first. The ball carrier should stay straight to hold their defender.
- then introduce blocker plays as an extension of your unders line. Eg - I would use the example above with the outside centre running the unders line in front of the inside centre. When we practice this we always start with the 13 slightly in front of the 12. Also, try bringing the blind side winger behind the 12 with the 12 running an unders line back towards the 10. This is a great way to get your blind side winger involved. (The other good variation I like is for the 12 to run unders and the blind side winger to provide an option on the 10s inside shoulder. The blind side winger does have to be very conscious that the defence is coming from his inside though and if they read it he may get blindsided).
- finally I would try a switch or dummy switch with the 10 switching with the 12 and having the 13 outside in support. The 10 can either give the ball to the 12 or dummy to them and feed the 13 straightening the attack. Make sure the 10 & 12 run a bit of an S - they run straight then angle then straighten again. Don't let them start running across straight away.
With your blocker plays and the switch/dummy switch, I would practice these as 3 on 2s. Try and emphasis to the ball carrier that either receiver is always and option, as is them dummying and going themselves. A key part of the drill is teaching players to read the defenders and hit the free man.
I think this is probably enough (maybe more than enough) if your players are just starting out with unders/blockers etc. When they can complete these to a high level of success, look to add some more variation.
Hope this makes sense/helps.
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
RB - yes I'm a coach and I use the same running lines described here - I think they are part of most coaches play book.
Is there anymore to know about running lines? Yes, we could go on for pages and pages and hours and hours.
Just because it works on TV doesn't mean it will work for your team. The complexity of the plays/running lines used by professional/national teams is most often more than is required at club level. A simple play, well executed, is most often good eneough to create a line break so as TSR says, don't need to over complicate it.
R
RuggerBugger
Guest
Yep I agree, not to over-coach like a dictator is important. Isn't that one of the issues you guys had with Eddie Jones? Sort of the same thing with Martin Johnson the last few years.
I'm not a coach though just really interested in learning about the game. If I knew more I may have considered trying to coach in some capacity but I don't. Not a lot of info out there as well so its been nice to tap into your knowledge. Thanks again gents.
I'm not a coach though just really interested in learning about the game. If I knew more I may have considered trying to coach in some capacity but I don't. Not a lot of info out there as well so its been nice to tap into your knowledge. Thanks again gents.
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