T
TOCC
Guest
Ive brought this over here because i want to avoid further hijacking Ali's thread
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T
TOCC
Guest
Unfortunately the figures don't indicate that the stadium change is to blame for a drop in the average attendance, if anything, the change to the new stadium initally stymied the negative decline in Western Force crowds by providing a stadium in which you can actually watch the play.
Western Force Crowds
Year: games/ total/ average / %change on preceding year
2006: 6 / 170,310 / 28,385
2007: 5 / 137,775 / 27,555 -3%
2008: 6 / 137,583 / 22,931 -16%
2009: 6 / 107,147 / 17,858 -22%
2010: 6 / 102,121 / 17,020 -4% *first season at NIB Stadium
41% decline between 2006 and 2010
I just want to emphasise on a point in which RedHappy raised, it is statistically supported by the figures represented here, and by the ABS who demonstrate that rugby union attendance as a percentage of the population has declined since 2005.
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
TOCC, slight correction, 2010 was the first year at Perth Oval for the Force.
EDIT: Sorry, dyslexia on my part. Ignore what I just said.
EDIT: Sorry, dyslexia on my part. Ignore what I just said.
Victorian Reds Fan
Bob Loudon (25)
Any figures of Rebels' home games?
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
TOCC, thanks for all this, especially the figures re implied code share and year-sequential attendance %s. You are an exemplary provider of useful hard facts re the game overall, and IMO it's really valuable to have them.
And it's essential to factor in population growth over any assessment period, looking at absolute numbers unadjusted absent that just flatters to deceive.
Blind Freddy can see what's happening from these hard facts:
(a) League and AFL are holding their 2006 -> 2010 % attendance levels far, far better than rugby. In fact, despite endless disasters and external embarrassments, league attendances per population have barely dropped, and soccer has made huge % gains, and in the process has now decisively overtaken rugby in 4 or so years.
(b) the scale's a bit hard to read, but rugby's pro-rata % fall off (ie, relative % fall off from the 2006 % level) over these 4 years looks to be only exceeded by....well, no other sport on this chart (with the possible exception of horse racing).
(c) using your other absolute crowd attendance figures, what also seems to be true is this: if an S14/15 team does not produce a reasonably consistent combination of good w-l %s (and thus enters SF or Finals contention) AND fan-friendly, well-delivered play, then absolute crowd attendance numbers fall off badly and stay down at roughy the mid-high teen '000s per game and never recover UNLESS, a la 2010 -2011 Reds, that trend is decisively and convincingly reversed, then full recovery - and potentially an exceeding-of-past-highs process - can take place quite rapidly (which is very encouraging for franchises that improve all of coaching, play outcomes, and management overall, the problem is: dangerously few are doing so).
What is disappointing at a national code level is (a) the obvious denial and flat-earth-societies (and thus reckless passivity for change) in many Aus rugby quarters that surrounds these demonstrably very negative trends and (b) the complementary (and just as dangerous) fiction that in some way the code is anything other than, in aggregate, nationally and locally, very poorly managed in both business-professional and coaching elements....there are very few exceptions (having one 'big turn-around' in the current Reds is nowhere near enough). If League can stay stable, soccer can grow significantly, and AFL achieve increases, why cannot rugby make some serious progress of its own?
And it's essential to factor in population growth over any assessment period, looking at absolute numbers unadjusted absent that just flatters to deceive.
Blind Freddy can see what's happening from these hard facts:
(a) League and AFL are holding their 2006 -> 2010 % attendance levels far, far better than rugby. In fact, despite endless disasters and external embarrassments, league attendances per population have barely dropped, and soccer has made huge % gains, and in the process has now decisively overtaken rugby in 4 or so years.
(b) the scale's a bit hard to read, but rugby's pro-rata % fall off (ie, relative % fall off from the 2006 % level) over these 4 years looks to be only exceeded by....well, no other sport on this chart (with the possible exception of horse racing).
(c) using your other absolute crowd attendance figures, what also seems to be true is this: if an S14/15 team does not produce a reasonably consistent combination of good w-l %s (and thus enters SF or Finals contention) AND fan-friendly, well-delivered play, then absolute crowd attendance numbers fall off badly and stay down at roughy the mid-high teen '000s per game and never recover UNLESS, a la 2010 -2011 Reds, that trend is decisively and convincingly reversed, then full recovery - and potentially an exceeding-of-past-highs process - can take place quite rapidly (which is very encouraging for franchises that improve all of coaching, play outcomes, and management overall, the problem is: dangerously few are doing so).
What is disappointing at a national code level is (a) the obvious denial and flat-earth-societies (and thus reckless passivity for change) in many Aus rugby quarters that surrounds these demonstrably very negative trends and (b) the complementary (and just as dangerous) fiction that in some way the code is anything other than, in aggregate, nationally and locally, very poorly managed in both business-professional and coaching elements....there are very few exceptions (having one 'big turn-around' in the current Reds is nowhere near enough). If League can stay stable, soccer can grow significantly, and AFL achieve increases, why cannot rugby make some serious progress of its own?
Cutter
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
The aggregate should increase this year due to additional games and an additional market (Melbourne). Average figures will decrease though and my impression is that the Tah's crowds have been on a steady slide for some years.
T
TOCC
Guest
the aggregate should also increase due the extended season, not only that, the extended season encompasses more 'local derby' matches...
Cutter
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Can you fit additional games into a shorter season?
Set piece magic
John Solomon (38)
Round 1: 25,524
Round 2: 14,234
Round 4: 15,126
Round 6: 16,809
Round 9: 18,739
Round 12: 16,593
Aggregate: 107025
Average: 17838
Victorian Reds Fan
Bob Loudon (25)
Cheers. Not a bad average crowd. Obviously not near AFL standards; was at the Bombers vs Tigers game last night and they got 83, 000.
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
Absolutely, but I was referring to the average figures too. With the Reds playing well, their average attendance should be on the climb. If the Tahs are still in the hunt when they get back from RSA, theirs should also.
T
TOCC
Guest
this answer would appear to be in the question......
chequebalance
Bill Watson (15)
I would put the Reds attendance average at around 27 - 28K this year..
Lance Free
Arch Winning (36)
Super Rugby Attendances (from a NZ Perspective 28/4/11 - and we think we've got a problem?)
The Stats Don't Lie (Much)
The crowd averages for the Super Rugby season thus far...
New Zealand: 12,732 (down 12%)
Australia: 19,312 (down 3%)
South Africa: 32,175 (up 24%)
So South Africa, who isn't hosting the RWC and has a bunch of teams who are mainly either shit, or underperforming are attracting crowds that NZ couldn't even dream about.
A few notes on the figures. The NZ figure doesn't include the Crusaders crowd from London for obvious reasons. Factors that have also influenced NZ crowds are clearly the Crusaders being unable to play at AMI Stadium (did AMI insure the stadium?). This would have been offset to some extent by Eden Park now being fully open whereas last year half of it was a construction site.
I have the crowd numbers for 61 out of 65 games so they pretty accurate. I am missing the crowds for two of the three Cheetahs games. Namely the last two which were their smallest, the Lions are missing two of their five as well, and they too will be too embarrassed to tell anybody how pathetically small their support now is. It was a ghost town in their ground last time out. And the Chiefs are missing the crowd for the Blues game which I saw on TV had sweet fuck all at it which is odd since it's supposed to be a derby game.
Stats (brackets is the total number up or down to date)
Stormers: 36447 (-5935)
Bulls: 35211 (+920)
Sharks: 30840 (+5173)
Lions: 28521 (+17382) *more like 20,000.
Reds: 26734 (+3907)
Waratahs: 23472 (-733)
Cheetahs: 23012 (+8671) * missing smaller crowds, probably 18,000.
Blues: 18321 (+504)
Rebels: 18086
Crusaders: 15419 (-6217) *includes London crowd
Force: 15405 (-1615)
Brumbies: 14524 (-733)
Hurricanes: 11494 (-3461)
Highlanders: 10847 (+5004)
Chiefs: 10,142 (-1486)
The obvious questions are why do the South African crowds grow significantly when they already have the biggest crowds? And why do our crowds continue to suck dogs balls?
Yes there is a financial 'crisis' but that is a global one and it has had little effect on Aussie and SA. Also the NRL crowds are as high as ever so far this year and in the past two years. The AFL average attendance last year was the highest ever.
That is a bullshit excuse, and I have heard people use it. The fact is people have lost interest plain and simple. The roots lie in the rest and rotation of the ABs in 2008. In 2007 the average crowd in NZ was 20172. In 2008 it was 15805. In the world of professional sport that is a COLLOSAL drop. It means 1 out of every 4 people thought "fuck this" and stopped going. And they've never gone since.
Other factors I think in the continued stagnation/drop are the number of people who now have Sky, especially MY Sky, who will now question why they would pay $85 a month to watch sport on TV and then go and blow anything from $40 to $100 plus if you have a family on getting ripped by parking, tickets, and food for ONE game that you could be watching from the comfort of home. Also if people are struggling to make ends meet then how come Sky subscriptions are going up, not being cancelled?
The ticket prices in South Africa are tiny compared to here. Yes it is a poorer country, and yes it is more heavily populated, but not by the white folk who go to the games. Tickets there are in the range of $5 for a crappy seat (in modern stadiums) to about $20 for the best seats in the house. People don't go the Cheetahs or Lions games (aside from season openers) because they are shithouse, but by god do they go to Stormers, Bulls and Sharks games. Despite the fact that they lie 3rd, 6th and 8th on the ladder.
In case the NZRU hasn't noticed, NZers a) aren't really fucking wealthy and b) spend their money on a shit load of other things these days.
You are in competition for their $$$'s which means that you either put on a better show (which you don't) or else you lower the prices (which you don't). Fortunately for them the Highlanders are going well this year which has meant that their is noticeably more support down south, but it's hard to see that squad carrying that on for much beyond this year.
The other concerning fact is that NZ has the strongest performing teams in the competition and yet it still doesn't translate into improved attendances overall.
NZ teams: 25 wins, 3 draws, 17 losses (147 comp points)
Aussie teams: 21 wins, 1 draw, 22 losses (127 comp points)
SA teams: 19 wins, 26 losses --- (118 comp points)
If the ABs crap out in this years WC and we get that stream of our Super Rugby players continuing overseas, and the NZ teams drop down in performance to the Aussie and SA sides then god help us in 2012 and beyond.
The Stats Don't Lie (Much)
The crowd averages for the Super Rugby season thus far...
New Zealand: 12,732 (down 12%)
Australia: 19,312 (down 3%)
South Africa: 32,175 (up 24%)
So South Africa, who isn't hosting the RWC and has a bunch of teams who are mainly either shit, or underperforming are attracting crowds that NZ couldn't even dream about.
A few notes on the figures. The NZ figure doesn't include the Crusaders crowd from London for obvious reasons. Factors that have also influenced NZ crowds are clearly the Crusaders being unable to play at AMI Stadium (did AMI insure the stadium?). This would have been offset to some extent by Eden Park now being fully open whereas last year half of it was a construction site.
I have the crowd numbers for 61 out of 65 games so they pretty accurate. I am missing the crowds for two of the three Cheetahs games. Namely the last two which were their smallest, the Lions are missing two of their five as well, and they too will be too embarrassed to tell anybody how pathetically small their support now is. It was a ghost town in their ground last time out. And the Chiefs are missing the crowd for the Blues game which I saw on TV had sweet fuck all at it which is odd since it's supposed to be a derby game.
Stats (brackets is the total number up or down to date)
Stormers: 36447 (-5935)
Bulls: 35211 (+920)
Sharks: 30840 (+5173)
Lions: 28521 (+17382) *more like 20,000.
Reds: 26734 (+3907)
Waratahs: 23472 (-733)
Cheetahs: 23012 (+8671) * missing smaller crowds, probably 18,000.
Blues: 18321 (+504)
Rebels: 18086
Crusaders: 15419 (-6217) *includes London crowd
Force: 15405 (-1615)
Brumbies: 14524 (-733)
Hurricanes: 11494 (-3461)
Highlanders: 10847 (+5004)
Chiefs: 10,142 (-1486)
The obvious questions are why do the South African crowds grow significantly when they already have the biggest crowds? And why do our crowds continue to suck dogs balls?
Yes there is a financial 'crisis' but that is a global one and it has had little effect on Aussie and SA. Also the NRL crowds are as high as ever so far this year and in the past two years. The AFL average attendance last year was the highest ever.
That is a bullshit excuse, and I have heard people use it. The fact is people have lost interest plain and simple. The roots lie in the rest and rotation of the ABs in 2008. In 2007 the average crowd in NZ was 20172. In 2008 it was 15805. In the world of professional sport that is a COLLOSAL drop. It means 1 out of every 4 people thought "fuck this" and stopped going. And they've never gone since.
Other factors I think in the continued stagnation/drop are the number of people who now have Sky, especially MY Sky, who will now question why they would pay $85 a month to watch sport on TV and then go and blow anything from $40 to $100 plus if you have a family on getting ripped by parking, tickets, and food for ONE game that you could be watching from the comfort of home. Also if people are struggling to make ends meet then how come Sky subscriptions are going up, not being cancelled?
The ticket prices in South Africa are tiny compared to here. Yes it is a poorer country, and yes it is more heavily populated, but not by the white folk who go to the games. Tickets there are in the range of $5 for a crappy seat (in modern stadiums) to about $20 for the best seats in the house. People don't go the Cheetahs or Lions games (aside from season openers) because they are shithouse, but by god do they go to Stormers, Bulls and Sharks games. Despite the fact that they lie 3rd, 6th and 8th on the ladder.
In case the NZRU hasn't noticed, NZers a) aren't really fucking wealthy and b) spend their money on a shit load of other things these days.
You are in competition for their $$$'s which means that you either put on a better show (which you don't) or else you lower the prices (which you don't). Fortunately for them the Highlanders are going well this year which has meant that their is noticeably more support down south, but it's hard to see that squad carrying that on for much beyond this year.
The other concerning fact is that NZ has the strongest performing teams in the competition and yet it still doesn't translate into improved attendances overall.
NZ teams: 25 wins, 3 draws, 17 losses (147 comp points)
Aussie teams: 21 wins, 1 draw, 22 losses (127 comp points)
SA teams: 19 wins, 26 losses --- (118 comp points)
If the ABs crap out in this years WC and we get that stream of our Super Rugby players continuing overseas, and the NZ teams drop down in performance to the Aussie and SA sides then god help us in 2012 and beyond.
Brumby Jack
Steve Williams (59)
Not sure if this is true or not, but I've noticed over the years that South African kick off times are later in the day (their time) than they used to be. I remember there used to be an 11pm (AEST) kick off for a South African game, but now it's either 1am or 3am.
Lance Free
Arch Winning (36)
Just a random blog from Enzed - they comment on a bit of everything.
http://bloggingitreal.blogspot.com/
http://bloggingitreal.blogspot.com/
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