Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2013

[Lee Grant]

I'm in NZ next week so I will avidly try to dig up some info (during my free time) on the likely team the Oz boys could be facing. Regardless, it will inevitably be a strong team, and hell bent on avenging the losses from 2011-12.

Personally I believe that this is perhaps the one of the best teams I have seen the Oz Schools assemble in the last few years, however I was of the same view with regard to the Ardie Savea led NZ Schools team of 2011!

Predictions are what you make until reality interferes

Yeah they do surprise you.

I thought the 2008 side wasn't up to much, yet they won in NZ; but I thought the 2009 pack had some of the best forwards i had seen for a while, even without the injured Hooper, and they would underwrite a victory - but they lost.

I was convinced the 2011 team would lose at Knox especially as the NZ dirt-trackers were that classy thrashing Oz A during the week - but they won with the scoreline flattering the Kiwis.


If you are around some NZ officials next week Newbie, try to get a sense of how they pick their team.

I've told this story before.

I was sitting next to an ex-NZ sub-union official at the 2010 Bledisloe in Sydney and watching Oz Schools play in the curtain-raiser and we talked about how our respective national schools teams were selected.

He said that when he was involved in NZ Colts junior rugby (a few years before that) they knew all the schoolboy stars in his sub-union but when they saw some of the lads picked for NZ schools they rolled their eyes. Some of the stars were overlooked and lesser players were selected instead.

The reason was that they didn't have the trials we had. Individual schools went to the national championships and if a lad wasn't in a school that competed he was at a disadvantage. Coaches of such schools who didn't go to the nationals used to send DVDs of their best players to the NZ Schools selection panel.

He was impressed by my explanation of what we did here, but I said that some lads who didn't go to a big rugby school were disadvantaged here. He said: not as much as in NZ.

We agreed it was one of the few things we did better.

But once they left school it was a different story, he said. The sub-unions recruited the right youngsters into their stables.

That could be a reason why our Oz Schools results v NZ have not carried forward to the IRB Under 20's in recent years: our schools teams were picked better — not perfectly — but better than in NZ.

But his description pertained to a few years before 2010; so if you could ask around Newbie, please find out how they picked the NZ Schools team in 2013.

Thanks
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[Quick Hands]

Unfortunately Charlie missed selection in the OZ team. Was very unlucky

Does this mean he will walk out of league and back to rugby?

The tenor of the posts from his supporters was "good riddance to rugby he's going to make it in league." I thought the statements were unwise at the time, bearing in mind that there is still half a season of GPS/CAS/ISA games in which people can be injured and he could be called up. I hope he/his parents didn't burn any bridges.

 

[Quick Hands]

I would have to agree with LG on this point! Moeroa has been developed as a forward by Parramatta which IMO has corrupted his game as a 'back' in Union.

Milne on the other hand has always been in the backs. The irony however is the fact that when Moeroa first made the Parra HMC team (a year young as an U/15) he was played at full back! Go figure!

It just underlines the fact that there is very little between positions in league. There is a basic skill set for all 13 positions and speed needed for the back 3. That's about all folks.

 

[Lee Grant]

The halves need a bit of special skills too and the dummy-half has to know how to distribute wisely.

But by and large you are right. A big lanky lad can play rugby union to the highest level as can the chunky slower fellow.

You don't see a lot of these players in pro rugby league because they don't fit in.
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[Newbie]

... ... ... The tenor of the posts from his supporters was "good riddance to rugby he's going to make it in league." I thought the statements were unwise at the time, bearing in mind that there is still half a season of GPS/CAS/ISA games in which people can be injured and he could be called up. I hope he/his parents didn't burn any bridges.

So true. How many times has such an instance occurred! Young lads (as is their genetic disposition) believe they're unbreakable and continue to play without caution, and then 'snap' an injury occurs and one lad's misfortune becomes another's opportunity!

Furthermore, it is not hard to discern from the intimate nature of the some posts that the authors are somewhat close to the people they are writing about. Most especially when its emphatic criticism of selectors.

This site has a very, very, wide audience and one could assume that even schoolboy selectors read its pages!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yeah they do surprise you.

I thought the 2008 side wasn't up to much, yet they won in NZ; but I thought the 2009 pack had some of the best forwards i had seen for a while, even without the injured Hooper, and they would underwrite a victory - but they lost.

I was convinced the 2011 team would lose at Knox especially as the NZ dirt-trackers were that classy thrashing Oz A during the week - but they won with the scoreline flattering the Kiwis.


If you are around some NZ officials next week Newbie, try to get a sense of how they pick their team.

I've told this story before.

I was sitting next to an ex-NZ sub-union official at the 2010 Bledisloe in Sydney and watching Oz Schools play in the curtain-raiser and we talked about how our respective national schools team were selected.

He said that when he was involved in NZ Colts junior rugby (a few years before that) they knew all the schoolboy stars in his sub-union but when they saw some of the lads picked for NZ schools they rolled their eyes. Some of the stars were overlooked and lesser players were selected instead.

The reason was that they didn't have the trials we had. Individual schools went to the national championships and if a lad wasn't in a school that competed he was at a disadvantage. Coaches of such schools who didn't go to the nationals used to send DVDs of their best players to the NZ Schools selection panel.

He was impressed by my explanation of what we did here, but I said that some lads who didn't go to a big rugby school were disadvantaged here. He said: not as much as in NZ.

We agreed it was one of the few things we did better.

But once they left school it was a different story, he said. The sub-unions recruited the right youngsters into their stables.

That could be a reason why our Oz Schools results v NZ have not carried forward to the IRB Under 20's in recent years: our schools teams were picked better — not perfectly — but better than in NZ.

But his description pertained to a few years before 2010; so if you could ask around Newbie, please find out how they picked the NZ Schools team in 2013.

Thanks
.

So Lee do you think that our s15 sides are casting their nets wide enough? Were they present at the u18 trial between the various school systems?
By all reports Cheika was at the Nats and I saw Jake White - but the stats or glimpses of history suggest that most of the s15 and wallaby talent will come from below the state teams.
I also saw Fava but i did not see any other 1st Grade coaches - I would have thought that they're the blokes - given the lack of clear pathways - who need to be there encouraging the state, CS and LMDS boys to go to clubs other than Sydney Uni (for nsw kids).

 

[Newbie]

LG,

Re: NZ Schools Selection

That is how I understood it as well. And yes you are quite correct about how the sub-unions/provinces operate (i.e. Auckland, Manukau-Counties, Canterbury et al). These entities know who their best juniors are as it is highly likely that the same players have been developed from U/16's and upwards to colts.

For example this year Auckland U/20's will compete in their 'Northern Region' provincial championship and play against Counties, North Harbour, Northland, Hawkes Bay, Bay of Plenty and Waikato. In addition they will also have fixtures against Wellington and Canterbury (matches which are generally curtain raisers to traditionally big NPC clashes). Australia doesn't have this!

Once upon a time Australian states and territories would select U/19 and U/21 teams that would regularly compete against each other (and the rivalry was fierce), and it was actively promoted and got good publicity within rugby circles!

Nowadays? Well I'm sorry but the SuperRugby academy squads for mine were never able to replicate this much needed developmental aspect of the game (especially at the important transitional 18-19 year age level) and our JWC results have reflected the same!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Newbie one of the benefits of that system was uncovering the kids who'd blossomed in their 1st year out of school would be looked at.
I well remember a bloke I coached who played 2nds @ SJC getting into 3rds colts in his first year out, playing 1st colts the next year and playing for NSW U21's (as it was then I think) as a result. There were a couple like that at just the club I was at.
These would not necessarily have been picked up even in the NZ system as they were juts later developers.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

./...snip.../.

This site has a very, very, wide audience and one could assume that even schoolboy selectors read its pages!

I have no doubt that these threads are widely read. I hope any selectors browsing don't read too much into what is posted.

There are some Gaggerlanders who shamelessly and rather transparently promote either their sons, or players from a club or school that they are associated with with little or no objectivity.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Newbie one of the benefits of that system was uncovering the kids who'd blossomed in their 1st year out of school would be looked at.
I well remember a bloke I coached who played 2nds @ SJC getting into 3rds colts in his first year out, playing 1st colts the next year and playing for NSW U21's (as it was then I think) as a result. There were a couple like that at just the club I was at.
These would not necessarily have been picked up even in the NZ system as they were juts later developers.

An interesting case in point may be young Horwitz. Made Aust Schools as a year 11 boy. NSW Schools I Captain for 2012 Nationals. Selected for the 2012 Schoolboys game vs Tonga. Unwanted for the 2012 Schoolboys End of Season tour of the Islands and NZ. Now playing Academy and Randwick first grade as an 18 year old. Doing fairly well by all accounts as well.

 

[Lee Grant]

Horwitz was also one of the "Invited Players" by the Tahs at the end of 2012 and the beginning of 2013 (as was the older Will Skelton).

He also played twice for the Sydney Academy team at TG Milner and is now playing Ones for Randwick as you say.

The "pathway", to use a boring word, has worked out for him as he is being exposed to the guys with the clipboards, but his exception is not the rule is it?

Some time ago I mentioned an U/19 tournament, similar to the Oz Schools tournament, that could be done on the cheap about this time of the year.

By this time in the season players who had had not made their mark at school as U/18s, but had matured in more than one way since leaving, would have been noticed in Colts. Some who had left school as U/17s, especially Qld lads who finished school earlier, could have had a quantum step up from their school days, in their second year of Colts.

Four teams from Qld, NSW, ACT and Combined States could stay at a school with boarding facilities during the holidays - and have 3 games without a final. They would most likely have to miss one game of club rugby, but that would not be the end of the world.

I don't argue that it would be a cure-all for talent identification of those who were not schoolboys stars, but it would be better than nothing, and be a precursor to Under 20 selection the following year.

The Oz Under 20s had three camps this year. But in the future, because of the Under 19 tournament at the end of the previous year, one of these camps could be dispensed with and the direct costs saved be offset against the cost of the tournament.
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[I like to watch]

An interesting case in point may be young Horwitz. Made Aust Schools as a year 11 boy. NSW Schools I Captain for 2012 Nationals. Selected for the 2012 Schoolboys game vs Tonga. Unwanted for the 2012 Schoolboys End od Season tour of the Islands and NZ. Now playing Academy and Randwick first grade as an 18 year old. Doing fairly well by all accounts as well.

No, that would be the opposite of what IS was raising.
He was talking about late developers i.e. someone who played School 2nd's and colts 3's in his first year.
You talk about a kid who was an Australian Schoolboy in yr 11.
That is not a late developer.

 

[Newbie]

IS/ILTW,

That is why the U/19 was good, because it identified late bloomers (i.e. lads who had left school as an U/17' or U/18). Ultimately the Sydney colts system was strong back then (from 1989 onwards - thank you Phil Kearn for hand gesture that inspired so many), and most had 5 grades but no less than 4.

Essentially each team would promote those who were the better players and therefore the same lads were then exposed to those carrying the clipboards. As I always say, 'cream will eventually rise to the top' and this system gave it a better opportunity to rise.

To be honest the the NZ system works like this as the squads throughout the year are never settled whereby it is common occurrence to see players dropped and consequently ayers added. The structure is dynamic!

 

[Lock-n-loada]

An interesting case in point may be young Horwitz. Made Aust Schools as a year 11 boy. NSW Schools I Captain for 2012 Nationals. Selected for the 2012 Schoolboys game vs Tonga. Unwanted for the 2012 Schoolboys End of Season tour of the Islands and NZ. Now playing Academy and Randwick first grade as an 18 year old. Doing fairly well by all accounts as well.

An interesting case in point may be young Horwitz. Made Aust Schools as a year 11 boy. NSW Schools I Captain for 2012 Nationals. Selected for the 2012 Schoolboys game vs Tonga. Unwanted for the 2012 Schoolboys End of Season tour of the Islands and NZ. Now playing Academy and Randwick first grade as an 18 year old. Doing fairly well by all accounts as well.

As a side issue there's a lad playing prem colts in Brisbane, in the back row, who's just turned 16. Apparently he goes to a school that doesn't play rugby so just plays club.

 

[Lee Grant]

Rob Horne was in the same situation, though I don't know how old he was when he played Colts.

He was still eligible for CHS teams though because he was still at school.
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[Eyes and Ears]

I think Waldo Wessels and BPA both played Colts 1 at Souths during Year 11 which I assume means that they were 16. Having said that, didn't both Pocock and JOC (James O'Connor) play for the Force at 17?

 

[Lee Grant]

So Lee do you think that our s15 sides are casting their nets wide enough? Were they present at the u18 trial between the various school systems?

At CAS v GPS, and at Curagul, I saw several guys who were hovering and pointing; one even had an actual clipboard. You'd think they wouldn't wear any club gear to be inconspicuous, but some of them did - a cap or a wind-breaker.

A friend of mine was at every rep game looking for tall timber for his club for Colts next year. Many of the scouts like him are not actually club officials but act informally.

As for the Super Rugby guys: I've seen Joeys' oldboy, Tim Kelaher, the Tahs scout, a couple of times, before the Oz Champs.

But he and other fellows who have his role would have known already about the likes of Andrew Kellaway, Harry Jones and the two league centres from NSW, and others from the other teams — but they needed the Nationals to put these guys into a context.

The trouble is that there is too big a gap between the Super Rugby teams and schoolboys.

Colts teams look at schoolboys for recruitment and it is a valid exercise, but there should be scouts from "provincial" Under 19 or Under 20 teams at the schools games recruiting for their sides. Of course, there are no such teams because there are no competitions for them.

Those missing competitions would have the games that the Super Rugby teams should be looking at; not schoolboys' games.

In the absence of them, I hope this development tournament that Pulver is talking about does some good because as much as we criticise the National Academy, which is to be disbanded, it did serve, at least, to find out the strengths and weaknesses of the players who were involved in it.

And as I have mentioned before: the development tournament of Pulver is a good idea, but I would prefer it to be only for players eligible for the next IRB JWC, especially if there is not going to be anything else for these players outside of Colts.

It should not try to serve too many purposes such as identifying older players to add to the 35 player roster, if there are injuries. Super Rugby already does a fair enough job of getting older players from club rugby outside of the 35 available players, when needed.

Nor should have special laws to get more people to the ground, as has been mentioned.These lads need to get set-piece excellence, not to be entertainers.

The development tournament should focus of the significant point: developing players in the brief period after school and the next IRB JWC. For some this will be for one part season outside of their normal Colts/Club programme; for most it will be for two part-seasons.

If there is going to be something new, let's target our needs accurately.

 

[Ted S]

I see Milne & Tepai missed as well.
Makes me think they'll be looking for a spot in union when they finish the <insert name of Chinese car maker> cup ( thanks @hughjarse) in a couple of years. They will need to learn how to position a man for a pass as their first not their last instinct. Not something taught in mungoball.
They would be much better served by sticking with union even if it doesn't pay.

Have you even watched Taane Milne play ?
One his great strengths is getting the ball away to his outside man.


The Waratahs can't even do it so I guess its not taught in RU either

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Have you even watched Taane Milne play ?
One his great strengths is getting the ball away to his outside man.

Sure have - did you not undertsand what I wrote? His first instinct is Not to pass.
People on here have agreed his passing sense is an issue - to greater or lesser degree. So I'm not alone.
If you think that trying to step your opposite (or 2 or 3 opposites), taking the resultant contact and then trying to pass is a viable way to play once you get out of schoolboys rugby union then I suspect you have been coaching the Wallaby backs - or watching too much loig.

 

[Zander]

Sure have - did you not undertsand what I wrote? His first instinct is Not to pass.
People on here have agreed his passing sense is an issue - to greater or lesser degree. So I'm not alone.
If you think that trying to step your opposite (or 2 or 3 opposites), taking the resultant contact and then trying to pass is a viable way to play once you get out of schoolboys rugby union then I suspect you have been coaching the Wallaby backs - or watching too much loig.

Your first instinct should never be to pass.