Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2012

[Casnovian]

Pleash
Wilson
Nadruku

For 1 2 and 3 from a snout

 

[Lee Grant]

So much for my mail that Horwitz was going to play 12. At least Stewart and Foketi are playing in their best positions if this is true.

And Robinson on the wing instead of game breaker Jones? That's like NSW when they chose Milne on the wing. As a winger Robinson is a good 13: he's a stepper or a tackle buster and can give a golden ball. If they wanted both Foketi and him in the same backline I would have put Foketi on the wing.

But Robinson is experienced; so let's see how he goes, especially chasing fast Tongans or running around them. Maybe it's just an experiment - fair enough.

Placid should be brilliant in this company as McIntyre is not a tactical kicker of note and will use his runners.
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[Lee Grant]

Pleash
Wilson
Nadruku

For 1 2 and 3 from a snout

Nadruku never took my eye in the tournament (at THP though he was listed in the programme as LHP) and I watched him for quite a while because I knew who he was related to - but that was obviously more my observing than his playing.

He started in just 2 of the 4 games and interestingly was on the bench in the play-off game. The ACT scrum bothered the NSW I scrum though: they beat them to the hit a lot; so he must have been influential in the process.

I have no qualms about the other two front rowers, but am still non-plussed about hooker Manu missing out on both teams. I can only conclude that one bad throwing to the line out day in windy conditions counted against him.
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[CTPE]

Nadruku never took my eye in the tournament (at THP though he was listed in the programme as LHP) and I watched him for quite a while because I knew who he was related to - but that was obviously more my observing than his playing.

He started in just 2 of the 4 games and interestingly was on the bench in the play-off game. The ACT scrum bothered the NSW I scrum though: they beat them to the hit a lot; so he must have been influential in the process.

I have no qualms about the other two front rowers, but am still non-plussed about hooker Manu missing out on both teams. I can only conclude that one bad throwing to the line out day in windy conditions counted against him.
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Front row selections are often perplexing. I've always been lead to believe that props are chosen on the following KPI's in order of performance:

1. Scrum
2. Lineout lifting
3. Defence/Tackle
4.Cleanout/breakdown
5. Carrying the ball

As you've seen more performances than anyone over the last 3 weeks LG I'd be interested in your thoughts selection wise if these KPI's had been applied?

 

[CTPE]

I have it from a good source that tomorrows team (atleast the backline) is as follows:

9. Pulver
10. McIntyre
11. Kellaway
12. Stewart
13. Foketi
14. Robinson
15. Placid

Despite what occurred in 2011 I can't see the benefit in playing McIntyre at 10 as IMO all it does is accommodate Placid at 15 but to the general disadvantage of the backline. McIntyre stood out at 15 last week and seems to be one of those players blessed with the benefit of "having so much time" to make the right decision- he rarely looks ruffled nor makes the wrong decision. Kellaway and Jones on the wings are like going into battle with fully armed exocets on the extremities.

That leaves 9,10, 12 & 13. Ferris has a better pass IMO than Pulver and this has probably been noticed given his elevation during the last three weeks of tournaments. Horwitz probably deserves to remain at 10 as his current form is good. Don't mind Foketi and Stewart together but there's a number of arguments as to who should be playing 12 and who should be playing 13.

 

[Rugby Mum]

This was on the ARU website. Been out of the loop so not sure if this is the team u were after.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Everyone is itching to get their hands on the starting 15 lineup.

 

[G-78-XV-V]

we should all now switch to the new thread started by News Bot on Monday, 'Aust schools to play Tongan schools"

 

[Casnovian]

Front row selections are often perplexing. I've always been lead to believe that props are chosen on the following KPI's in order of performance:

1. Scrum
2. Lineout lifting
3. Defence/Tackle
4.Cleanout/breakdown
5. Carrying the ball

As you've seen more performances than anyone over the last 3 weeks LG I'd be interested in your thoughts selection wise if these KPI's had been applied?

You almost got it. I saw a selection worksheet last year (and work book which was guarded like it was gold and returnable on completion of the camp at the National Titles).

I suppose different coaches/managers/administrators have different ideas about their intellectual property.

Positions have specific competencies - for example for prop

1. Set piece ( Scrum Body Shape & Dominance)
2. Set piece (Lineout, Shifting and Lifting)
3. Tackle Contest Support (Accuracy & Past the Ball Focus)
4. Defence (Set Play and Primary Role at Breakdown)
5. Attack (Catch & Pass / Ball Carry)

Core Competencies (expected from all players)
1. Effort on Effort
2. Tackle - Willingness and Effectiveness
3. Discipline
4. Physicality - Willingness
5. Support - Attack and Defence

AND.............................

Point of difference - What makes the player stand out!

 

[Lee Grant]

Thanks for posting that Casnovian - and CTPE earlier.

I don't why it is kept secret. To the contrary: I would advertise it to all the players in Australia so they can improve. I would let every coach know what is being looked for also - and add the ability to play with an effective work rate for long periods.

Casnovian - if you have such lists for other positions I would appreciate your posting them. There can be no harm in it.

CTPE - I don't think I am the best to ask questions about the KPIs. The older I get, and that is old, and the more games I watch, and they are many, the more I appreciate how much I don't know about the game and how bad a selector I am. Years ago I didn't think that but I didn't realise then that I didn't know what I didn't know. Now I do.

I am getting quite good at the Core Competencies and items 4 and 5 of the specifics in Casnovian's post, getting better at 3, but need work at 1 and 2. 2. Set piece (Lineout, Shifting and Lifting) is a particular problem for me and I think it is for others who remark on the matter in professional rugby, or rather don't remark on it because they don't consider it.

Some props who lift don't have the footwork for it in the prelim, or the timing, yet they can butcher a perfectly good throw because of their deficiency.

As ever the backs are easier to assess because you can see them easier, but it is in the close work where the good selectors notice things - even matters like a forward doing busy work that is not effective.

Yeah - let's tell all the lads and coaches what selectors are looking for. It will help them get into rep sides, but more importantly it will make them better players for as long as they play the game.
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[CTPE]

Just received this by text:

"Australian Schoolboys 70 def Tonga 13 this evening. Lead 42-3 at half time"

 

[Lee Grant]

Oz Schools 70 - Tongan Schools 13

Even taking into account the standard of the opposition players, from just 6 different schools, it was a good effort from the Aussie lads, especially in the 1st half. Forwards were able to create good front foot ball; sometimes for themselves, but most often for the backs who pigged out on the ball.

It was hard for the Tongan lads as they got caught in the revolving door of their forwards going back, and the backs having to retreat with them - and just as defenders were on their heels the Aussie backs would run onto the ball. And more likely than not there was more of the same in the next phase.

It was better for the visitors after oranges, when the score was 42-3 and 6 tries to 0. Both sides sent bench players on and Tonga performed the better: they scored a try after 2 minutes and after 25 it was just one try each for the second half.

Then the Aussies hit a golden patch and in 10 minutes scored 3 magic tries that were worth the trip to St. Marys. Damn they were good.

The Aussies had no particular issues in the set pieces. I thought that their light scrum might have a few problems but it wasn't the case, and restarts were generally good unless they misjudged the reception spot.

Some comments on the Oz players, not purporting to be comprehensive:

• 1. Pleash was very active and had an outstanding burst from the lineout through several tacklers to score. At only 92kgs though he will have to put on a bit of pork down the track to play the position in senior rugby. Goal kicker 2. Wilson played like a backrower and some of his conversions were brilliant. 3. Nadruku surprised me with some stutter steps before the pass but it's not something you look for in a THP.

• 4. Rorke was a problem for the Tongans every time he had the ball and was involved in many dominant collisions. He was the biggest bopper of the match.

• 6. Dempsey had several good runs carrying on his form from the Oz Schools Final, especially in the 1st half, but 7. Gunn was the real star. He had a half a dozen good runs many with a step and once running a good line to get the pass for his own try. It looks like he has a future in the position as a senior player, and at 93 kgs now he should end up big enough to do so.

• 12. Stewart looked like a Kiwi-slayer without doing anything too fancy; he crash balled through a few times but not at the expense of forgoing a move further out.

• 13. Foketi was the star back of the first half doing things like faking would-be tacklers standing still before making a break, to running along touch at full speed linking with Placid on the way to a brilliant try - except a 3rd player dropped the pill.

• 15. Placid attacked well: once in the 2nd half, playing on the left wing, he ran behind all the players and created some play on the right side of the field which led to a try.

• 20. Fakauselia, usually an 8, fulfilled my wish by playing 6 from the bench replacing Dempsey in the 2nd half. Once he nabbed an overthrown Tongan lineout ball and went on a long run, and he was noticeable at other times trying to get the hit in counter rucks.

• 22. Horwitz played 12 at first, then 10 as Placid went to Robinson's wing and McIntrye to fullback. His memorable moment was when he found himself supporting the ball runner along touch then threw a miracle ball behind his back before being pushed out, and Foketi caught it to score.

• 23. Jones, the 16 year old star of the Oz Schools tournament, had 3-4 runs on the right wing when he came on late and they were all highlight reel stuff. Before the match I didn't know why centre Robinson was starting on the wing instead of Jones and hopefully this will be the last time. This lad is a cracking player and very quick.


So, a good effort by the boys, but if we are on Kiwi watch we can't expect our young Wobs to dominate the collisions as they did in this match. Their starting props and all their locks except Rorke are not big lads, and though they could not have done much more physically in this match you could see that they may lack a couple more big boppers to help Rorke in NZ.

The backs should be slick even against the Kiwis and the goal kicking of 2. Wilson and 10/15 McIntyre should be at the high level we saw in the Oz tournament and against Tonga.

28 players will be chosen to tour Fiji and NZ and the team will be announced on 14th August.
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[lily]

Well said.

Playing Colts with and against boys a couple of years older will be their first hurdle especially those who play in the tight five. They would have done some gym work at school but some of the Colts would have been putting in heaps more than they have ever done and that is on top of what the older Colts did at school themselves.

There will be a Darwinian weeding out of players even before they get to Grade though some will get to Grade before their time because of the poor depth some clubs have now. That will serve them no good but it is the way of the world in Oz club rugby.

Many of the tight five forwards will find out what they have already expected, that they won't be big enough to play prop or lock or 8 as senior players; so some of them will look at playing hooker or 6 or 7. There will be a host of star Oz schools forwards who will end up as notters - not really locks or 6s or 8s but too small, unless they have a notable point of difference, to play in their school position. They may end up in Grade and that's about it, and maybe not in the Ones.

2nd rowers will find a few giraffes like some Pyles, Nevilles or Douglases blocking their way, yet they were unheard of as schools players. Props may take 5 years to get to the level in senior rugby that they were at school and then they may find players from the school Twos in front of them because they dealt with the senior scrumming laws better and got stronger than they did, despite their best efforts.

Backs will have similar problems though not as many as the forwards. Players with old heads at school will be playing against men a few years later who have the 21 year old head at 21, that they had at 18.

In all positions you will have lads that were physically mature at 17 but notice others catching up with them later. Some, hopefully not too many who end up playing for Oz Schools or the A team, will find out that they are not tough enough to advance much after they leave school.

And yarda, yarda - I digress.
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Very well said Lee. Also this is exactly why I dont understand the high level of posts on these soon to be nobodies. Private school players who forgo colts rugby in Yr 12 will also find it harder to make the transition.

 

[KOB1987]

Here are the scorers:

AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS DEFEAT TONGAN U18 SCHOOLS AT ST MARYS RL STADIUM. SATURDAY 14th July 2012
Australian Schools 70 (Aaron Pleash, Mitchell Whiteley, Andrew Robinson, Jim Stewart, Moli Sooaemalelagi, Mitchell Gunn 2, Lalakai Foketi 3 tries, Jake McIntyre 2, T Wilson 8 con) defeated TongaU18 Schools 13 (Jonathon Lokotui try, Mosese Latu, 1 con, 2 pen) at St Marys RL Stadium, Saturday 14th July. Crowd: 2000.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Very well said Lee. Also this is exactly why I dont understand the high level of posts on these soon to be nobodies. Private school players who forgo colts rugby in Yr 12 will also find it harder to make the transition.

ummm....because its a huge achievement in its own right and it's fun to try and see who will make it and why.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[lily]

No doubt it is a great achievement but the level of analysis that some people make is ............. I'll let someone else finish that sentence.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

No doubt it is a great achievement but the level of analysis that some people make is ..... I'll let someone else finish that sentence.

one other thing is that it's an insight into the future of the s15 and wallabies.......as are the 20s which are a better indicator for this.....and more worrying


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CTPE]

Oz Schools 70 - Tongan Schools 13

• 1. Pleash was very active and had an outstanding burst from the lineout through several tacklers to score. At only 92kgs though he will have to put on a bit of pork down the track to play the position in senior rugby.

• 23. Jones, the 16 year old star of the Oz Schools tournament, had 3-4 runs on the right wing when he came on late and they were all highlight reel stuff. Before the match I didn't know why centre Robinson was starting on the wing instead of Jones and hopefully this will be the last time. This lad is a cracking player and very quick.

I'm surprised that Pleash is only 92kg as from what I saw at the National Champs he plays well above that weight. I'm sure the ARU minders will get him onto a good bulking up program as he has enormous potential as a 1 - do you know how old he is LG and whether he's able to back up next year?

I spoke to someone this morning who went to last nights game and who described Jones as invoking a "Campese" air of expectation in the crowd whenever the ball is headed his way with plenty of people rising from their seats in anticipation of him doing something quite brilliant once he has the ball in his hands - and the outcome is that he meets the crowds expectations quite often. Newbie suggested recently that Kellaway might make an early transition into the Australian 7's team - I think that H Jones will be there about the same time if not even earlier.

 

[CTPE]

You almost got it. I saw a selection worksheet last year (and work book which was guarded like it was gold and returnable on completion of the camp at the National Titles).

I suppose different coaches/managers/administrators have different ideas about their intellectual property.

Positions have specific competencies - for example for prop

1. Set piece ( Scrum Body Shape & Dominance)
2. Set piece (Lineout, Shifting and Lifting)
3. Tackle Contest Support (Accuracy & Past the Ball Focus)
4. Defence (Set Play and Primary Role at Breakdown)
5. Attack (Catch & Pass / Ball Carry)

Core Competencies (expected from all players)
1. Effort on Effort
2. Tackle - Willingness and Effectiveness
3. Discipline
4. Physicality - Willingness
5. Support - Attack and Defence

AND...........

Point of difference - What makes the player stand out!

Interestingly the KPI's for hookers I'm lead to believe are a bit different - whilst scrum and lineout throwing techniques obviously rate highly I understand that there's a far greater emphasis on running the ball evasively and on catch and pass. In order it's:

1. Set piece play (scrum & lineout)
2. Ball carrying & support
3. Front foot defender
4. Catch and pass

 

[Lee Grant]

I'm surprised that Pleash is only 92kg as from what I saw at the National Champs he plays well above that weight. I'm sure the ARU minders will get him onto a good bulking up program as he has enormous potential as a 1 - do you know how old he is LG and whether he's able to back up next year?

I spoke to someone this morning who went to last nights game and who described Jones as invoking a "Campese" air of expectation in the crowd whenever the ball is headed his way with plenty of people rising from their seats in anticipation of him doing something quite brilliant once he has the ball in his hands - and the outcome is that he meets the crowds expectations quite often. Newbie suggested recently that Kellaway might make an early transition into the Australian 7's team - I think that H Jones will be there about the same time if not even earlier.

I got my info on the lads from the teams S&C guy Darren Gunn, with the permission of Manager Paul Geddes. He does play bigger than his weight doesn't he? I don't know if he will be back at school next year as the Qlders often leave school a year earlier than NSW lads.

I should have asked Pleash's father, who I was talking to last night. He said he was about 95kgs, but dads always talk up their son's weight. I think that Adam is the ideal type of prop to convert to hooker.

Yeah, a few got excited after Harry Jones got the ball, but I don't think that many knew who he was, just somebody doing magic things for about 25 minutes, which is about all he got.The bloke sitting next to me recognised him though, but stayed calm: he had seen it all before: in the NSW IIs campaign he had been involved with. He just wagged his head and smiled in appreciation of what his charge had done.

I know what the guy meant about the "Campese" air about him, but if there is one ex-player that he reminds me of, it is Ben Tune. That's the style of winger he is - I'm not suggesting that will be of the same quality, though one can always hope.

If the past use of other ex-schools players of their type is any guide, both Kellaway and Jones will be ideal to be in the Oz 7s when they leave school, though we will have to wait a while to see as they are both in Yr.12 next year. They are instinctive attacking players and good defenders when chasing fast opponents. Jones' speed is exceptional and Kellaway is no slug either.

Jones is already 91kgs at age 16; so watch this space.
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