Australian Schoolboys and National Championships 2011

[Newbie]

Lack of Depth!

As to the depth situation sitting on the bench unavailable today because of injury were Tom Cusak, Brogan Roods, Rhys Dombkins and Ben lawley. Also unavailable for this game was Caleb Timu and Chris f'Sautia. Thats six definite starters. Also, Harry Orr hurt himself at the camp and had to withdraw from the game....

Iluvmyfooty,

Ok, I hear what your saying however for a nation of our size, even with several injuries to key players, we should still be able to field a second team of near comparable strength!

The fact that there was such a disparity between the two should be of an upmost concern for those in charge of junior development (i.e. Manu Sutherland and Ben Whittaker).

Regards,
Newbie

 

[an observer]

Iluvmyfooty,

Ok, I hear what your saying however for a nation of our size, even with several injuries to key players, we should still be able to field a second team of near comparable strength!

The fact that there was such a disparity between the two should be of an upmost concern for those in charge of junior development (i.e. Manu Sutherland and Ben Whittaker).

Regards,
Newbie

You need to keep in mind that a "Nation our size" is not just about population but also about demographics. Many of the players travel for up to 12 hours just to get to training camps, let alone games. This, added to the cost in transportation is a real issue for rising talent amongst the ranks and for the selectors in general. Cost aside, we need to need to look further afield and stop being so city centric. Compare this to the likes of England where the players travel time is a maximum of four hours and the costs are significantly less. There is room for debate that the players chosen were actually "the best on show" Schoolboys in Australia. Having said that, the boys are all worthy of credit for their commitment and determination and for playing the best rugby they could on the day. These are Schoolboys, kids, young adults, lets give them the respect and accolades they deserve. Well done to all of them.

 

[Newbie]

Less 'City Centric'?

... Cost aside, we need to need to look further afield and stop being so city centric. Compare this to the likes of England where the players travel time is a maximum of four hours and the costs are significantly less ... These are Schoolboys, kids, young adults, lets give them the respect and accolades they deserve. Well done to all of them.

Observer,

You have completely missed my point. No one was having a crack at any of the players so please do not insinuate that I was! Please read my earlier comment to this effect!

Nevertheless Australian Schoolboys is where professionalism starts in rugby I'm afraid so we cannot afford to wrap these lads up in cotton wool to protect their fragile egos. From here each of these lads will be aspiring to gain entry into a SuperRugby franchise so lets not kid ourselves about what the expectations are in terms of standard they have to reach! I only happened to attended the Aus A v NZ game however the key protagonists of professional rugby (and for that matter rugby league) were there; and they were looking (emphasis added)!!

Your reference to a need to stop being 'City Centric' couldn't further from the mark IMO. For mine the ingnorance of the NSWRU and ARU of greater western Sydney and south-western Brisbane is a travesty. In saying that I take on board the programs that are being implemented in the abovementioned areas, however they are not enough! If the AFL and NRL can invest decent dollars to secure the hearts and minds of young children and their parents in these areas then our peak bodies need to match them; its not like they do not have the funds!

I recently spoke to a 'SPORTS NUT' primary school teacher who, as a coach, has numerous AFL, rugby and league championships to his credit! Even though he won't recognise it, this man can lay claim to having had input into the development of countless AFL, rugby and league representatives at all levels of junior representation, with one lad having gone all the way to represent Australia. I had a recent conversation with this teacher at the local swimming pool several weeks ago and asked about how his teams were going. During the conversation, and to my surprise, he mentioned that he had not seen the local ARU development officer in two years. He did however note that the ARL had been to the school once and the AFL twice!

On a final note lets talk England! Lee summed it up in his earlier post so I wont repeat the same, however I will make one point! Please do not suggest that the costs are considerably less in England than than they are here in Australia; they are not! As a supporter of London Irish I have seen the money this club (and its counterparts) pour into grass roots rugby, especially at the disadvantaged levels of their respective communities. Its great to see that they look after their grass roots! I wish some club in this country could do the same! What a revelation that would be!

Maybe I see rugby from a different perspective to most in this room, however we're from all walks of life I suppose!

Regards,
Newbie

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Aus schools is not where professionalism starts: it is the pinnacle of a kids school rugby life. It is an end in itself and if the kid never does another thing in rugby he has achieved a notable and rare honor.
What percentage of these kids ever make a living from the game?
They are not mini professionals.
Most of them have their HSCs coming up in which they need to do well in case the cards don't fall their way later.
They should be allowed to revel in the moment: as Deans says you have to enjoy every minute because you never know when you will have played your last minute.


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[Informer]

Aus schools is not where professionalism starts: it is the pinnacle of a kids school rugby life. It is an end in itself and if the kid never does another thing in rugby he has achieved a notable and rare honor.
What percentage of these kids ever make a living from the game?
They are not mini professionals.
Most of them have their HSCs coming up in which they need to do well in case the cards don't fall their way later.
They should be allowed to revel in the moment: as Deans says you have to enjoy every minute because you never know when you will have played your last minute.

I think if you read the program for the Australia schools V NZ game you get a good idea about where the boys think they are headed. With a few exceptions the NZ boys aspired to play for the All Blacks, not just a super 15 team, while the Aussie boys were a mixture, some wanted to go on to play elite rugby without saying the Wallabies, while some were content to go with a career and one dare I say aspires to be a lawyer.

However you look at it our boys do not all dream about playing for their country as the pinnacle of success. In some sense I think this reflects the fact that there are more life options open to Australians while for the Kiwis rugby truly is a national passion and a passport to a better life.

I think the challenge for the ARU is to identify those boys not just with the natural ability but the mindset that "rugby is my goal in life and I am committed to do whatever it takes to be successful". Of the schoolboys I have seen over the last few years I believe there are boys who have the ability and the mental toughness to go the distance, while most will just settle back into playing club footy and be happy with that.

One thing you can be sure of, the Kiwis will have no problems finding boys who want to put in the hard yards.

 

[Lee Grant]

In my opinion players that will kick on in senior (u20's) rugby are

Curtis Browning, Michael Wells, Waldo Wessels, Jim Stewart (even though he still has another year of school to come) and from the injured players Tom Cusack, Rhys Dombkins and Brogan Roods

Agree with your list plus CFS, as light mentioned. He is a precocious talent but seems to be injury prone; so let's hope he is not another serial crock when he is older. Of all the lads leaving school that we have had a good look at, Browning and CFS are the most likely to do best after they leave school. I've tried to watch Browning in the two games I have seen him play this year to judge his speed as a future 8 or 6, but he wasn't in the open much to judge. At 193cms he will be too short to be a lock outside of club rugby.

It's hard to know where Wells, currently 195cms and 96kgs, would fit in at anything above the club level. Probably as a 6 but he will have to put on the pork though maybe he has some natural weight gain to come anyway.

I have given Wessells faint praise in the past apart from the trial game at Curagal before the NSW teams were picked this year, IIRR. He had a dominant game on Saturday and has gone up even further in my estimation. The reserve flyhalf, McIntyre, a CHS lad, played well enough in the two games from the bench. We will have another look at him next year when he is in Yr.12.

Another player that may do well is LHP Paraka. He's a short arse at 175cms, which I don't mind in a LHP, and 113kgs. He looked handy around the traffic areas and, as much as you can tell watching play under the U/19 laws, his side of the scrummage was good and sometimes better than that.

There's a player who played from the bench for Oz A who will surely do well when he leaves school. He was the star of the recent Oz U/16 tournament and was called in to be a reserve; looked OK when he ran on too. Watch this space on 12. Jack Tuttle.

 

[Newbie]

I Agree!

I think if you read the program for the Australia schools V NZ game you get a good idea about where the boys think they are headed. With a few exceptions the NZ boys aspired to play for the All Blacks, not just a super 15 team, while the Aussie boys were a mixture, some wanted to go on to play elite rugby without saying the Wallabies, while some were content to go with a career and one dare I say aspires to be a lawyer.

However you look at it our boys do not all dream about playing for their country as the pinnacle of success. In some sense I think this reflects the fact that there are more life options open to Australians while for the Kiwis rugby truly is a national passion and a passport to a better life.

I think the challenge for the ARU is to identify those boys not just with the natural ability but the mindset that "rugby is my goal in life and I am committed to do whatever it takes to be successful". Of the schoolboys I have seen over the last few years I believe there are boys who have the ability and the mental toughness to go the distance, while most will just settle back into playing club footy and be happy with that.

One thing you can be sure of, the Kiwis will have no problems finding boys who want to put in the hard yards.

Informer,

What you say makes a lot of sense; especially your last two paragraphs.

With respect to your last paragraph, and by way example, is the fact that most lads coming through the league system (in particular those transitioning from U/18 SG Ball through to U/20 Toyota cup) aspire to NRL greatness and consistently put in the 'hard yards' notwithstanding the fact that only a minor percentage will actually realise this outcome! The point being is their mindset and determination and the fact that the NRL are never short on numbers; just as you mention in your last paragraph as it pertains to he Kiwi lads!

As you allude to in your second paragraph perhaps socio-economic factors play their part insorfar as Australia vis a vis NZ is concerned? I believe you're on the money! I would even be so bold to go as far as suggesting that certain parts of western and south western Sydney are subject to a similar socio-economic affectation! Furthermore, I believe that league has successfully tapped into this source and that the AFL concur! It would be great to see if rugby could emulate this success!

Regards,
Newbie

 

[Joe Mac]

It's hard to know where Wells, currently 195cms and 96kgs, would fit in at anything above the club level. Probably as a 6 but he will have to put on the pork though maybe he has some natural weight gain to come anyway.

It's very tough to pick the players of the future however I think Wells has one of the best chances of the bunch. I saw him play five or six games this year and he seems to have one of the best rugby brains out there. Defensively he hits much harder than someone his size should and he plays a very good support game that reminds me of McCaw. I think he will be a 6, maybe a 7 of the future provided he can play the same game with 10-12kgs on his frame.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I realise this is a rugby forum so this might seem an inappropriate thought to utter: these boys may have all the will in the world and not make it. Even if they make it these kids need to have an eye on what they will do beyond football, for 2 reasons: there aren't enough jobs going to employ everyone who was a wallaby and because they might pick up a career ending injury at any time - although these are more rare than they used to be.
Accordingly, whether they aspire to be a wallaby, s15 player, a club player or to join these forums they have to be encouraged to look at a broader focus than "rugby is my life".
The Wallabies who followed the straight path from schoolboy to wallaby (QC (Quade Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor) and KB (Kurtley Beale)) have got themselves into various levels of trouble, arguably through a lack of any outlet but rugby. Its not healthy and its not encouraged in any other walk of life to exclude all but one element from one's life.
One need only look at 2 greats of league: Ray Price and Brett Kenny to see what can happen if you make a sport your life to the exclusion of all else. Kenny tells a story of a bloke delivering something to his parents house where he was living and being disbelieving that a man of his stature could be reduced to living with his parents. it is salutary that Kenny kept Wally Lewis out of test teams for a time - yet Lewis finishes up with the gig on TV. It can be a cruel world: its not like Wally is a TV natural.
The more union expands away from the private schools the greater the risk that young players will see the game as their meal ticket and wont have the support network the private schools offer: there is an obligation to show them the broader benefit of a life in rugby - one not available in league - beyond the playing enclosure and not to see them as mini professionals.
Sure give them encouragement to pursue their dreams, even those for whom the dream may not be realistic, but they need some balance.

 

[Informer]

The more union expands away from the private schools the greater the risk that young players will see the game as their meal ticket and wont have the support network the private schools offer: there is an obligation to show them the broader benefit of a life in rugby - one not available in league - beyond the playing enclosure and not to see them as mini professionals.
Sure give them encouragement to pursue their dreams, even those for whom the dream may not be realistic, but they need some balance.

The ARU and super 15 franchises do a fairly good job of dealing with these young men from more than just a rugby perspective. They are given life skills training in managing finances and social pressures and encouraged to at least have a trade and preferably tertiary education. Unfortunately once the wheel stops and its time to get off there is no follow on support in union or league so it seems. I remember when Ben Darwin broke his neck the guy was ill prepared for the sudden loss of income and it took a toll on him in more than just a physical sense. Still, a few years of glory in the hands of a good manager, combined with an awareness of the need to prepare for life after rugby should set you up for later in life.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I was aware of those programs and they are essential but i am also concerned at the attitude of the promising 16, 17 and 18 year old who aren't in the s15 structure, obviously, who are encouraged by some success in the game but who, for various reasons, dont have a fall back position.
I know that the US college system is flawed but maintaining academic eligibility is a prerequisite to playing college sport so that there is some recognition of the need for an education, even if you major in the "History of the Quaterback in the Lingerie Football League".....

 

[Newbie]

Narcissism!

... The more union expands away from the private schools the greater the risk that young players will see the game as their meal ticket and wont have the support network the private schools offer ...

An elitist's utopian ideal I take it?

Heaven forbid should the CHS or CCC associations ever rise above their proper station in the schools rugby hierarchy!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

An elitist's utopian ideal I take it?

Heaven forbid should the CHS or CCC associations ever rise above their proper station in the schools rugby hierarchy!

this is a foolish response, unworthy of you.
I am seeking to put the long term welfare of the child first: the private school system has long been able to find paid work for its old boys of limited economic value to their employers.
A child coming from the public system who wrongly back his rugby talent as his meal ticket has no such support mechanism.
I am raising the need to think of that issue.
Get the chip off your shoulder.

 

[Newbie]

Warranted; not foolish!

this is a foolish response, unworthy of you.
I am seeking to put the long term welfare of the child first: the private school system has long been able to find paid work for its old boys of limited economic value to their employers.
A child coming from the public system who wrongly back his rugby talent as his meal ticket has no such support mechanism.
I am raising the need to think of that issue.
Get the chip off your shoulder.

Inside Shoulder,

It would be very easy to turn this into a slanging match, however I will make the following comments and then I will say no more.

You assume that the public school system to which I will add the Catholic schools are unable to provide a support network. I add the Catholic schools having spent my entire education in the Catholic system and I never considered myself to be a private schoolboy.

On the network issue private schools did not/do not have a monopoly. My school's network was great. I gained (and completed) an apprenticeship through the same, as did others! Even a close friend, through his public school network, was able to secure an apprenticeship. I eventually went on to become a solicitor and my friend a teacher! Not bad for a pair of kids from the western suburbs of Sydney!

Finally, I have no chip on my shoulder; I just find your comments to be outdated and somewhat offensive to my upbringing!

Newbie.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Did you play Australian schools?
As a solicitor you must have been exposed to the old boys network. In other industries it opens doors that are closed to the rest of us.
If you think otherwise then you are mistaken.
Unless you have been an elite player a junior level the comments were not about you, and unless you were left high and dry the comments were not about you. its not all about you.
Finally, you make assumptions about my background without knowing anything of it.



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[magpie4ever]

Sir Newbie - what school?????

Inside Shoulder,

It would be very easy to turn this into a slanging match, however I will make the following comments and then I will say no more.

You assume that the public school system to which I will add the Catholic schools are unable to provide a support network. I add the Catholic schools having spent my entire education in the Catholic system and I never considered myself to be a private schoolboy.

On the network issue private schools did not/do not have a monopoly. My school's network was great. I gained (and completed) an apprenticeship through the same, as did others! Even a close friend, through his public school network, was able to secure an apprenticeship. I eventually went on to become a solicitor and my friend a teacher! Not bad for a pair of kids from the western suburbs of Sydney!

Finally, I have no chip on my shoulder; I just find your comments to be outdated and somewhat offensive to my upbringing!

Newbie.

What IS is stating, was and probably still is one of the problems with rugby union in this state - it is bloody elist. The average footballer going to a GPS school getting the inside running into rep teams & a business career through the network of old boys (although he could be as dumb a dog shit) -the old money syndrome.

Why was it that the tykes walked away from union as their winter sport in the 50s and why is it that no CCC U16s player was in the final NSW schools team (although Michael obviously pull the pin for whatever reason); because it is still there. Granted, to get one up on their other GPS schools they now opening recruit talented players from lower socio-economic areas for bragging rights and probably will not be pushing the the old boys network to obtain business careers for these boys once they lose their usefulness to the school - that will be for their in-bred offspring.

The ARU is trying the break this down, doubt they will ever succeed; that is why these charles are anti the junior gold squads because it is not elist but based on what their recruiters believe these boys will show in talent 4-5 years down the track.

This should get the old boys fired up.

By the way, Christian Brothers, Lewisham before it become a conclave for our middle eastern cousins.:lmao:

 

[Lee Grant]

OK that's enough on this matter. Folks are getting too wound up.

magpie4ever said I was a cyber Hitler and thought he could be banned.

He was right.

(My first one).

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

I was aware of those programs and they are essential but i am also concerned at the attitude of the promising 16, 17 and 18 year old who aren't in the s15 structure, obviously, who are encouraged by some success in the game but who, for various reasons, dont have a fall back position.
I know that the US college system is flawed but maintaining academic eligibility is a prerequisite to playing college sport so that there is some recognition of the need for an education, even if you major in the "History of the Quaterback in the Lingerie Football League".....

From what I have observed first hand all the boys involved in Schools this year have a definite path set out that is either education based (uni) or jobs based (trade) for the next few years. this has been reinforced over the years with them by the ARU and their involvement with JGS/NTS. The focus for most for their rugby is to play colts next year and have a good showing in, for some their first year. From discussions with parents and the players themselves no-one is hoping to play Super15 immediately or even in the next few years. Some have hopes to play at this level but none have made it their sole focus and make rugby their life. Please give them, their parents and those advising them some credit for doing the right thing by them

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

By the way, Christian Brothers, Lewisham before it become a conclave for our middle eastern cousins.:lmao:

My old alma mater, CBHS Lewisham, great school and very good old boys network - yarangabi, yarangabi, etc. This schoolw as a very good league school up to the late seventies and then things changed with the racial mix changing. i noticed that there was a CBHS boy playing in the CCC side this year. It would be great to see rugby make some inroads into the place

 

[Joe Mac]

The reputation of League has been in constant decline and hopefully, the poor role models of their modern game are pushing more schools to take up rugby union. It surprises me that the ARU isn't doing more at this level to get schools involved with our game. What an opportunity!

It would probably only take some Gilberts and a few professional players visiting the schools to get things moving... Maybe a few tickets to an empty SFS to see the Tah's