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Australian Rugby / RA

Sword of Justice

Sword of Justice

Arch Winning (36)
SouthernX said:
Just to clarify on the poaching union players for league. Some NRL clubs are actually picking up the tuition of some prospects…. Locking them into deals before and then sending them to rugby union nurseries
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How is this done prior to the players turning 18? Handshake agreements?
 
The_Brown_Hornet

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Micheal said:
A thought -- in podcasts and articles over the last year, I've read how Ireland completely transformed their rugby program and national results over a number of years by embracing and investing in it's private school system.

Since hearing this, it's bounced around my head a lot.

I went to a Sydney GPS school (graduating in 2012) and I'm generally pretty frustrated by the private school system in Sydney and the type of people that it produces.

I've likewise always hated the private schoolboy culture and classism that permeates Australian rugby union, and I used to be a firm believer that the game had to move beyond private schools in order to succeed, grow and develop. I am literally physically embarrassed when attending Shute Shield games, and geriatrics at Waratahs games make me want to cry.

However, it seems that these days that rugby union is facing existential threats in these schools themselves, as parents look towards soccer (a safer sport) and the AFL continues to invest within programs inside these schools.

If this continues, and if rugby union loses it's place in these schools, what else does it have remaining?

So, I suppose I'd evoke some devils advocate thinking here and pose a question -- should Rugby Australia double down on investment, partnerships and programs within the private schools of our capital cities?

Some thoughts --

[1] We talk a lot about rugby league stealing union players out of highschool, but the reality of the situation is often that these players were poached from rugby league clubs whilst in highschool by way of scholarships to these schools. In this manner, and if this 'poaching' can be imbued, it'd allow rugby union to compete with league in terms of professional recruitment in the younger age groups.

[2] The financial situation of some of these schools absolutely dwarfs our rugby administrators. For instance, Shore School purchased Graythwaite in 2013 for ~$40 million without financing. They just had that cash sitting around, likely because they own an insane amount of property in North Sydney, and their student fees exceed $50 million per year. For reference, Rugby Australia had a profit of $8M in 2022, and the NSWRU had a profit of $200K for the same year.

The balance sheets and P&Ls of individual schools in this country likely dwarf even Rugby Australias.

For all the talk of grassroots funding, we have a very strong grassroots system that would be self-funded (to an extent not possible by Rugby Australia) if properly incentivised.

E.g. if Rugby Australia could work with a broadcast partner to secure a deal to televise school rugby competitions, and then some sort of national Champions Cup style competition at the end of the season, it'd create an arms race within these systems (beyond that which already exists), causing insane levels of investment that would not be possible anywhere else.
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I hear you. I didn't go to a private school and played club footy, as did several of my state school mates. It so happened we had a club in our local area and consequently recruiting kids wasn't super hard. The nearest league club was several suburbs over too, which helped. My kids went to private schools, however, and my boy played rugby all through middle and senior school. The shit part was that because of Saturday sport from Yr 10 onwards, he couldn't have played club rugby if he wanted (same with his cricket). So guess what - he played Aussie Rules on Sundays! So I'm a bit dark with the private school sport association here in WA about that, but on the other hand you know it going in.

Here in WA though, there is a more equal proportion of private vs state school kids playing the game and that old school tie business is less of a problem in the game. RugbyWA does put a lot of effort into getting supporting community footy and also encouraging state schools to play the game. I hope the other unions around the country do the same.
 
Ignoto

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
Sword of Justice said:
How is this done prior to the players turning 18? Handshake agreements?
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It'd be interesting to see it tested it court, but the agreement would be with the parents who may even have a clause to repay the NRL club back if their son decides not to join the club.

Similar claw back clauses are inserted into graduate roles for lawyers and accountants as their firms pay for post uni studies ie PLT and CA. However, generally the firms won't litigate against juniors as it looks pretty bad and ultimately costs the firm more to recoup the $10k or whatever PLT costs these days.
 
Sword of Justice

Sword of Justice

Arch Winning (36)
Ignoto said:
It'd be interesting to see it tested it court, but the agreement would be with the parents who may even have a clause to repay the NRL club back if their son decides not to join the club.

Similar claw back clauses are inserted into graduate roles for lawyers and accountants as their firms pay for post uni studies ie PLT and CA. However, generally the firms won't litigate against juniors as it looks pretty bad and ultimately costs the firm more to recoup the $10k or whatever PLT costs these days.
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Man that seems so unethical to me - even the offer to pay itself contingent on later services, let alone the enforcement which I doubt would hold up once the athlete has their own agency.

The athletes should not feel bad at all if they choose to pursue something else in life, even if that's rugby, as opposed to rugby league.
 
The Ghost of Raelene

The Ghost of Raelene

Simon Poidevin (60)
I don’t think the NRL clubs care about the fees. If they had 5-6 kids in private schools around Aus costing them 150k so be it. They pay a lot of the SG Ball and Harold Matt kids in NSW at times amounts between 5-15k to keep them at the Club. Same thing really and I’d say 90% will never play an NRL game for the Club.

Doesn’t count to salary caps so you will probably find the big (rich) clubs will do it more and inevitably get more striking gold.

I remember drama around Kurtley who was on a bursary at Joeys in Sydney but the Tahs signed him and paid him. School then wanted fees which is kind of fair in my view. Bursary can be available to another boy but I can also see the side of Kurtley in it.
 
Agent

Agent

Billy Sheehan (19)
Derpus

Derpus

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Ignoto said:
It'd be interesting to see it tested it court, but the agreement would be with the parents who may even have a clause to repay the NRL club back if their son decides not to join the club.

Similar claw back clauses are inserted into graduate roles for lawyers and accountants as their firms pay for post uni studies ie PLT and CA. However, generally the firms won't litigate against juniors as it looks pretty bad and ultimately costs the firm more to recoup the $10k or whatever PLT costs these days.
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There are limited circumstances where children can be contracted, such as employment. Not sure if it covers these kinds of arrangements.

I think contracting with the parents on the condition their child do certain things is less likely to be enforceable (particularly any clawback) and seems less ethical to me.

It may be the case that most of these agreements aren't strictly enforceable in a court but I doubt that's the point. The clubs are just setting up an incentive system to ensure they are attracting the talent.
 
SouthernX

SouthernX

John Thornett (49)
I think it’s a
Agent said:
Albo seems to be making promises lately of public holidays for World Cup wins. I wonder if Rob is squeezing the bejeezus out of his hand and giving a gentle reminder they are about to go the RWC? :)
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Avg Aussie rugby fan: The wallabies won the RWC

Average Australian: where are these wallabies and what is RWC
 
PhilClinton

PhilClinton

Mark Loane (55)
Saw an interesting statistic this morning and I know it’s difficult to make a ‘like for like’ comparison, but 100% of the current Aussie women’s soccer team and 90% of the Aussie men’s played at least 1 season of A-League footy before moving on.

Majority of their key players play in the best overseas competitions now. Both teams are what you would deem successful considering the status of soccer in Australia as a professional ball sport.

I don’t ever think a professional rugby comp in Australia that has a similar status to the A-League will ever be palpable to fans or administrators. But it’s an example of a model that is clearly working for the national setup.
 
The Ghost of Raelene

The Ghost of Raelene

Simon Poidevin (60)
I’d be interested to know the age they played in it for the Matilda’s more than the Socceroos. Wouldn’t surprise me to hear they played in the Women’s A league at 15-16 which doesn’t do much for me but would add to the idea of more games make better players. Can also only be done in non contact sports.
 
qwerty51

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
I feel like rugby is so much more cohesion based than soccer though, seems a lot easier just flying guys in and slotting them into a team, it's all individual stuff in terms of kicking the ball, only one at a time etc.

I don't think rugby could ever go that route.
 
Rob42

Rob42

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
PhilClinton said:
Saw an interesting statistic this morning and I know it’s difficult to make a ‘like for like’ comparison, but 100% of the current Aussie women’s soccer team and 90% of the Aussie men’s played at least 1 season of A-League footy before moving on.

Majority of their key players play in the best overseas competitions now. Both teams are what you would deem successful considering the status of soccer in Australia as a professional ball sport.

I don’t ever think a professional rugby comp in Australia that has a similar status to the A-League will ever be palpable to fans or administrators. But it’s an example of a model that is clearly working for the national setup.
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The A-League ranks 29th in world soccer comps, from a quick Google. The rugby equivalent would be the Shute Shield or Hospital Cup. It "works" for the Socceroos or Matildas because every other national team has players playing all over the world - no cohesion from the junior level, as Ben Darwin would say.
 
PhilClinton

PhilClinton

Mark Loane (55)
Rob42 said:
The A-League ranks 29th in world soccer comps, from a quick Google. The rugby equivalent would be the Shute Shield or Hospital Cup. It "works" for the Socceroos or Matildas because every other national team has players playing all over the world - no cohesion from the junior level, as Ben Darwin would say.
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And the Springboks won a RWC recently using the same method didn't they?
 
Braveheart81

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
PhilClinton said:
And the Springboks won a RWC recently using the same method didn't they?
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I think the RWC is a unique beast though. It's the only time that teams get this long to prepare for.

You'd be at a serious disadvantage for a lot of test series if you're flying half your squad in on the Monday of the match whereas your opposition has been training together for two weeks.

Soccer is a level playing field because of the global calendar and the fact that almost every good team has their players dispersed all over the world (or at least Europe).
 
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