S
Australian Rugby / RA
- Thread starter Dave Beat
- Start date
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
I said a long time ago, somewhere in 2009-2010, that there is something rotten in the Tahs, when there were so many coaches through the turnstiles and no real change was made. That pattern really hasn't changed with the exception of two years, or maybe one and a bit. What has been consistent is the lack of play from players. Sure I am all for holding coaches to account, we have had some bloody awful systems (which got a defensive coach promoted to the Wallabies job), but there has to be some accountability on the players as well, they are supposed to be professional.
My argument has been coaching has been pretty average, but not all of them can be that bad, but learning is a two way street, and I think it is pretty apparent through 15 years of under performance (excluding a couple of standout years & no the conference system guaranteeing a spot to also ran Australian teams is not a measure of any great worth) that the players are unreceptive to real coaching. They go through the motions of being professional but nobody really improves or develops their game. Name a single player in the last 15 years who have developed their game to the extent of say Ma'a Nonu, Nemani Nodolo, Damien McKenzie etc etc. These players have shown marked increase in their skills and in some case developed skills where they have been previously completely lacking, such as Nonu's kicking game.
Part of this problem is for me that there are no real consequences for Australian players from their abject failures. The Tahs and Rebels have shipped an unbelievable number of points two weeks running, teams full of apparently test level players who look disinterested, poorly execute absolute basic skills and frankly look amateur. What is the consequence - well they get a rest and their pay checks, and show up again next year. Oh yeah some will get even more coin to under perform in a Wallabies jersey with the same basic skill errors, the same errors they have shown since they started in the "Pro" system.
So is it the system, the players, the culture or the coaches. I'd say it starts with the culture and a certain arrogance or self confidence in players that is actually required to succeed at anything, that morphs into an arrogance in a group/cultural setting that prevents learning and the fact that few coaches seem to get any traction through this shows perhaps that while they a good rugby minds they cannot break through this. Add in the lack of accountability in contracting and you see that there is no real stick the coach can hold over a senior "test" player.
My argument has been coaching has been pretty average, but not all of them can be that bad, but learning is a two way street, and I think it is pretty apparent through 15 years of under performance (excluding a couple of standout years & no the conference system guaranteeing a spot to also ran Australian teams is not a measure of any great worth) that the players are unreceptive to real coaching. They go through the motions of being professional but nobody really improves or develops their game. Name a single player in the last 15 years who have developed their game to the extent of say Ma'a Nonu, Nemani Nodolo, Damien McKenzie etc etc. These players have shown marked increase in their skills and in some case developed skills where they have been previously completely lacking, such as Nonu's kicking game.
Part of this problem is for me that there are no real consequences for Australian players from their abject failures. The Tahs and Rebels have shipped an unbelievable number of points two weeks running, teams full of apparently test level players who look disinterested, poorly execute absolute basic skills and frankly look amateur. What is the consequence - well they get a rest and their pay checks, and show up again next year. Oh yeah some will get even more coin to under perform in a Wallabies jersey with the same basic skill errors, the same errors they have shown since they started in the "Pro" system.
So is it the system, the players, the culture or the coaches. I'd say it starts with the culture and a certain arrogance or self confidence in players that is actually required to succeed at anything, that morphs into an arrogance in a group/cultural setting that prevents learning and the fact that few coaches seem to get any traction through this shows perhaps that while they a good rugby minds they cannot break through this. Add in the lack of accountability in contracting and you see that there is no real stick the coach can hold over a senior "test" player.
Take out the last two Rebels games and this Tahs game and this has been a very good Super Rugby season for the Aussie teams. 5 wins over kiwi teams is a damn good start. Every team got one.
So yep. Definitely stronger as 4.
Equalizer
Trevor Allan (34)
Australian Rugby and to our head honchos at Rugby Australia take a bow. 2019 you have been truly lame.
Rebels go down 125 to 8 in last two games with finals on the line. They cant even make it in an expanded 8 team finals format, but yet a Fox Sports journo pens an article stating Australian teams have been more competitive as a result of dropping the Force?? Where is the heart....where was gutting it out...I haven"t seen a team fold like that since Japan in the 2014 Origami World Championships. If being in finals contention with a a 44% win record is considered being competitive then lets pop the champagne corks and toast the watershed year it has been for Australian Rugby.
Australian Rugby has never been in a more dire state and as a Force fan I lament on what a poor strategic decision Rugby Australia made 2 years ago.
Rebels go down 125 to 8 in last two games with finals on the line. They cant even make it in an expanded 8 team finals format, but yet a Fox Sports journo pens an article stating Australian teams have been more competitive as a result of dropping the Force?? Where is the heart....where was gutting it out...I haven"t seen a team fold like that since Japan in the 2014 Origami World Championships. If being in finals contention with a a 44% win record is considered being competitive then lets pop the champagne corks and toast the watershed year it has been for Australian Rugby.
Australian Rugby has never been in a more dire state and as a Force fan I lament on what a poor strategic decision Rugby Australia made 2 years ago.
Rebelsfan
Billy Sheehan (19)
you're delusional Rugby reg.
Wonderful counter argument. There have many times this season when heaps of people have commented on the higher quality of the Aussie teams. Recency theory will hinder that perspective as will the fact the Rebels clearly have a systemic cultural issue down there that needs resolving.
But there have been wins and performances this year far better than we could have done with 5 teams.
Rebelsfan
Billy Sheehan (19)
It wasn't a counter argument Rugby Reg. It was an observation.
Rebelsfan
Billy Sheehan (19)
Note to RA - here's how good coaches are appointed:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...or-steve-hansens-replacement-wont-lack-vigour
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...or-steve-hansens-replacement-wont-lack-vigour
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
Yes it has, plenty of times. Learn a bit of history before you start pontificating.
I support the national team, and also want to see all our Soup teams doing well. Do you?
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
What do I believe?
Actual on field results, or my lying eyes .....
Aurelius
Ted Thorn (20)
Well, when the Force were axed the Waratahs got Rona and Newsome, the Brumbies got Naisarani and Peni, and the Rebels got everyone else who didn't go to Europe or stick it out in Perth and the Reds got SFA as far as I can recall.
I find it hard to believe that the acquisition of a couple of rookie Force players have been responsible for any uptick in the Tahs' and Brumbies' fortunes against Kiwi opposition, and if they were then the Rebels sure as hell should be doing a lot better than they are.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
So you saying those Force players weren't good enough to improve the teams they went to? Perhaps they were a team of dead wood
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
This is going to be an unpopular opinion for fans of two of the Aus teams in the Rebels and the Force. But we pushed for the wrong kind of expansion at the end of Super 12. Instead of more teams we should have gone for Super 12 going from the single round robin format of 11 games to the double round robin for 22 games plus finals.
And perhaps we should kind of be looking at that now. Drop another team. I know. Shrinking to greatness and all. But drop one and look to replace in with a semi-pro rep/academy squad playing in say the Shute Shield. Could run a main squad and a colts that would play Shute Shield teams in the current bye week.
This could be coupled with more support for the Force's GRR project by working with them to identify emerging talent that could be then farmed out to GRR teams (beyond the Islander squads) and even a 2nd Aus based GRR squad. It would provide another pathway to professionalism for players that while not being quite up to Super Rugby standard for the first 5 or so seasons would still be above that of the club game. But would ultimately bring our pro squads in Super Rugby down to three.
Encourage cooperation for the SARU to send a 3rd team to the Pro 14 not one of either the Griquas or Pumas as the Pro 14 have made it very clear it's Super Rugby squads or nothing. And bring the numbers down to 12. With the remaining 3 SA teams plus the Jaguares, our remaining 3 and NZ's 5.Then push hard for a double round robin schedule. This would ensure the remaining three would again have a higher talent concentration ensuring higher levels of competitiveness, provide them with 11 home games a season and 18 games in more viewer friendly time zones in all.
dru
David Wilson (68)
Also ad hominem and while I kind of agree with your observation on this forum Reg deserves better. Which I’m sure on reflection you will agree.
dru
David Wilson (68)
I’ve another idea. Let’s drop, oh two conferences. Yeah. Shrinking to actual greatness. Time to stand up with what we’ve Got.
If you want a “Super” after the real domestic and National season let’s build two selection super teams in a short knock out Super comp.
Aurelius
Ted Thorn (20)
So you saying those Force players weren't good enough to improve the teams they went to? Perhaps they were a team of dead wood
The great shame for Australian rugby as a whole is we'll never know what that squad with that coaching team could have done in future seasons if they'd just been given a chance. They were the great improvers in Australian rugby in 2017, and even though they lost more than they won those losses were on the whole competitive, not the embarrassing blowouts we've seen over the last couple of weeks.
Instead, RA arbitrarily broke up a promising squad and sent most of them to Melbourne, and now the same players and coaches who showed such promise when they were playing together are being written off as not up to scratch by their new teams' fans, at the same time we're being told that this redistribution of playing talent has had a material impact on our fortunes against New Zealand sides over the last couple of years.
Nope, not buying it.
Until we sort out and keep quality (elite) coaches in Australia we will never compete with NZRU who look after their own and provide targeted development and support for others OS.
What is the process of appointing these coaches and the next level of coaches
Have all the below coaches come through any profiling?
Rebels and Tahs need full coaching restructures
Should the role of GM professional pathways be replaced with a Director of Rugby position with old heads sitting above.
This is the UK model and if HC leaves the system and structure in place remain.
Imagine the IP we could have in these roles
In review
Rebels
Wessels HC - SA
Parling - Eng - no coaching experience, but was a good player so maybe that counts!!
Berne - AUS limited coaching only in ireland as academy coach
Foote - SA - SA 7s, Perth
GM professional pathways - Nick Ryan
Reds
Thorne - NZ NRC plus reds 2 seasons now
McKay AUS - Wallaby, most experienced attack coach currently in Aust, Super Rugby title , Tonga WC, Japan TL
Peter Ryan AUS - Brum, Fiji
Lillicrap - AUST Scrum Coach
GM professional pathways - Nick Cordingley
Waratahs
Gibson - NZ - is not a HC
Whitaker - AUS Coaching history? France DIV 2? small playing coach roles at end of career
Cron NZ - Promises and talks a good game but has not delivered,
Tandy - Welsh, this one is the most questionable
Tandy joined the NSW Waratahs earlier this year as part of a professional development opportunity from Wales and Gibson said he brings a different coaching philosophy to the team. Mates with CEO from Ospreys
GM Professional Pathways - Tim Rapp
Brumbies - All AUST COACHES ALL THROUGH PATHWAYS
McKellar - AUS
Fisher - AUS
Hewat- AUS
GM Professional Pathways - Chris Tindall NZ from the Chiefs
What is the process of appointing these coaches and the next level of coaches
Have all the below coaches come through any profiling?
Rebels and Tahs need full coaching restructures
Should the role of GM professional pathways be replaced with a Director of Rugby position with old heads sitting above.
This is the UK model and if HC leaves the system and structure in place remain.
Imagine the IP we could have in these roles
In review
Rebels
Wessels HC - SA
Parling - Eng - no coaching experience, but was a good player so maybe that counts!!
Berne - AUS limited coaching only in ireland as academy coach
Foote - SA - SA 7s, Perth
GM professional pathways - Nick Ryan
Reds
Thorne - NZ NRC plus reds 2 seasons now
McKay AUS - Wallaby, most experienced attack coach currently in Aust, Super Rugby title , Tonga WC, Japan TL
Peter Ryan AUS - Brum, Fiji
Lillicrap - AUST Scrum Coach
GM professional pathways - Nick Cordingley
Waratahs
Gibson - NZ - is not a HC
Whitaker - AUS Coaching history? France DIV 2? small playing coach roles at end of career
Cron NZ - Promises and talks a good game but has not delivered,
Tandy - Welsh, this one is the most questionable
Tandy joined the NSW Waratahs earlier this year as part of a professional development opportunity from Wales and Gibson said he brings a different coaching philosophy to the team. Mates with CEO from Ospreys
GM Professional Pathways - Tim Rapp
Brumbies - All AUST COACHES ALL THROUGH PATHWAYS
McKellar - AUS
Fisher - AUS
Hewat- AUS
GM Professional Pathways - Chris Tindall NZ from the Chiefs