Australian Rugby / RA

[Dan54]

The fuck is grassroots supposed to mean? I figure its supposed to mean ordinary fluffybunnys like me who want to rock up for a run out, literally shart on their first hit up and then punch a few beeros afterwards. Maybe I'm wrong about that but that isn't what club rugby is.

Yep Derps, grassroots rugby isn't Shute Shield or Hospital Cup, its, stuff like subbies I reckon. Same as in NZ, grassroots is in the country clubs, places like Kaponga, town of 310 people but still got a club/team and you regularly see 80-100 standing on sidelines in cold wet weather, and seeminly the rest in a bigger game. Kind of see people come to game and disappear to do farm work etc, same as subbies etc in Aus when I was there, hoping half youer tem has finished work in time fir game.

 

[Strewthcobber]

For me, grass roots is entry level rugby. It's where players play their first ever game.

Not the juicy green tips way up at the top level with paid staff and former Wallabies on the field.

 

[dru]

Geez this conversation got weird.

1. It does seem a contradiction when major games are scheduled in clash with amateur playing rugby comps. Especially when there is a supposed reassessment going on by RA to reengage with the grass roots. Certainly not a silly statement by a rugby fan on a rugby site who is caught by it.
2. No actually playing rugby fans are not the only key to pro rugby support. I cant see why the term "core" should be offensive either. Fans spending the day playing rugby or supporting kids who do, then coming to the pro games - well rugby is pretty core to them, no? But yes yes, there is a much wider community who a legitimate rugby fans too. Let's not get too sensitive.
3. How in hell did this turn into a bloody Shute Shield legitimacy issue? Crumbs. Like it or leave it, even the "core" rugby fans dedicated to doing great stuff for their SRU club in the furtherance of rugby should be able to see the disfunctional family aspects of Shute Shield, not just to RA but NSWRU and with Waratahs (still Ltd?) working hard on silence on the issue.
4. No that disfunction does not translate to a diminishing of the great work in rugby done genuinely within Shute Shield by upstanding club members - no reason these guys can't claim that "core" term either. And the Shute Shield does have the history and establishment to take some pride - rest of us should probably reduce sensitivity to the claims in spite the disfunction.
5. God's sake yes there is more happening in rugby in Sydney than Shute Shied and they too... ffs does this stop?

OK, probably just pissed off each possible permutation of argument here. Time to quit digging in the bottom of my hole.

 

[Pfitzy]

Would love to hear you expand on that thought. Is it the consolidation with too many tiers of grade and colts rugby at certain clubs?

Definitely. "Premier" Rugby clubs in Sydney should not be 4 Grades + 3 Colts if they're serious about being Premier. And when some of those clubs are running 5 Grades + 4-5 Colts it is even worse. You also have clubs who aren't meeting the criteria (Two Blues, Souths, Hunter), so is this even sustainable?

That said, if the players just want to be "seen" in the club shorts and socks, and not actually play any rugby, that isn't the club's fault. But the clubs should be thinking about ways they can make themselves sustainable and contribute to the wider landscape as a development platform.

What we need is alignment: Premier clubs should be coordinated with local Subbies clubs to make sure there is knowledge and resources shared rather than jealously guarded. Establish tiers and catchments to allow the game to work together rather than as wholly separate entitites.

There are other hurdles:

At U15 level, schools are quite often cutting junior clubs off at the knees.
At U18 level, school leavers are often unaware that options other than Premier exist.
At U20 level, Colts "graduates" outnumber the Grade attrition and don't think they have anywhere to go.

We're not really good at retention in critical years. I reckon at each of the stages above, we lose double-digit percentages of players.

 

[stillmissit]

What we need is alignment: Premier clubs should be coordinated with local Subbies clubs to make sure there is knowledge and resources shared rather than jealously guarded. Establish tiers and catchments to allow the game to work together rather than as wholly separate entitites.

I agree with this and there are advantages if there is goodwill. I ref'd subbies rugby for 20 years and farted around coaching them for a few and there is a fair amount of talent running around in subbies and conversely there are guys in lower grades of premier clubs who would enjoy their rugby in a subbies environment. It depends on locality and the major clubs joining with local subbies clubs. I know it used to happen in my time with a local subbies club feeding players into colts and older players moving to subbies for a final few years.

 

[thepuma]

That's what squillions of poker machines will do for you.

Panthers were going broke 10 years ago Phil Gould lobbied govt and James Packer to invest in them... investment = rewards whatever sport it is

 

[Adam84]

Panthers were going broke 10 years ago Phil Gould lobbied govt and James Packer to invest in them... investment = rewards whatever sport it is

‘broke’ is a stretch, Penrith NRL club were posting losses, and even Panthers Group themselves had sizeable debt but Panthers Group still had $200million in assets, what they actually had was a cashflow/liquidity problem whilst capital expenditure programs on Leagues Clubs were taking place.

It’s like the friend who owns 10 investment properties complaining they’re broke because they’re running low on cash to pay for house Reno’s and extensions at the holiday house.

 

[LevitatingSocks]

Definitely. "Premier" Rugby clubs in Sydney should not be 4 Grades + 3 Colts if they're serious about being Premier. And when some of those clubs are running 5 Grades + 4-5 Colts it is even worse. You also have clubs who aren't meeting the criteria (Two Blues, Souths, Hunter), so is this even sustainable?

That said, if the players just want to be "seen" in the club shorts and socks, and not actually play any rugby, that isn't the club's fault. But the clubs should be thinking about ways they can make themselves sustainable and contribute to the wider landscape as a development platform.

What we need is alignment: Premier clubs should be coordinated with local Subbies clubs to make sure there is knowledge and resources shared rather than jealously guarded. Establish tiers and catchments to allow the game to work together rather than as wholly separate entitites.

There are other hurdles:

At U15 level, schools are quite often cutting junior clubs off at the knees.
At U18 level, school leavers are often unaware that options other than Premier exist.
At U20 level, Colts "graduates" outnumber the Grade attrition and don't think they have anywhere to go.

We're not really good at retention in critical years. I reckon at each of the stages above, we lose double-digit percentages of players.

Devil's advocate: I can't speak for the Sydney scene so my take might not be relevant to you, but there are reasons guys fill the ranks of lower grades of QPR up in Brisbane. The QPR clubs have a bit more going on with events and sideline atmosphere. There's more room to push yourself from a sporting perspective as well. Not unheard of for guys to decide to get serious about their rugby and work their way up from 5th grade to the 2nd grade teamsheet and there's something special about that.

But it's also true that there's a portion who are there for the club branded merch.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

‘broke’ is a stretch, Penrith NRL club were posting losses, and even Panthers Group themselves had sizeable debt but Panthers Group themselves had $200million in assets, what they actually had was a cashflow/liquidity problem whilst capital expenditure programs on Leagues Clubs were taking place.

It’s like the friend who owns 10 investment properties complaining they’re broke because they’re running low on cash to pay for house Reno’s and extensions at the holiday house.

Yeah, they were never broke. They weren't run properly.

Once they got a plan in place and stuck to (5+ years) the results started and have been maintained. Other Clubs are the same Parra are busted not broke. Bulldogs have been busted but not broke.

Devil's advocate: I can't speak for the Sydney scene so my take might not be relevant to you, but there are reasons guys fill the ranks of lower grades of QPR up in Brisbane. The QPR clubs have a bit more going on with events and sideline atmosphere. There's more room to push yourself from a sporting perspective as well. Not unheard of for guys to decide to get serious about their rugby and work their way up from 5th grade to the 2nd grade teamsheet and there's something special about that.

But it's also true that there's a portion who are there for the club branded merch.

I agree with this big time. Some guys who would probably value add to a Subbies Club want to keep hanging out with their group of mates who could have a couple of 1st Graders but they are 4th graders. It's still seeing your mates 3-4 times a week just like a lot of the Schools where you're not all in the same sides.

I like both comps and have played in both 'tiers' but it's silly we have separate comps with their own governing bodies. We're now discussing "who is grassroots, no I'm grassroots"...

In my mind that is always the juniors. We want to create a bond to the sport with kids. Parents will go where they think the kids get the most value and fun. There's plenty of Rugby Dads with kids as Aus Kick these days.

 

[Highlander35]

I dunno. I feel it wouldn't be difficult for "Manly Amateur Rugby Football Club" to be formed, have a 4-3 Subbies lineup and then the 2-1 Manly RFC plays "Premier Rugby".

Same colours, same ground, same training sessions, just SRU taking itself a little more seriously.

 

[Pfitzy]

Devil's advocate: I can't speak for the Sydney scene so my take might not be relevant to you, but there are reasons guys fill the ranks of lower grades of QPR up in Brisbane. The QPR clubs have a bit more going on with events and sideline atmosphere. There's more room to push yourself from a sporting perspective as well. Not unheard of for guys to decide to get serious about their rugby and work their way up from 5th grade to the 2nd grade teamsheet and there's something special about that.

I don't have an issue with anything you say there, and will point out Brisbane had a bigger Subbies comp for a long while that was more than just a Friday night 6th Grade run around. That has changed, because the numbers are no longer there and critical mass of big clubs creates its own gravity.

This is what I fear for Subbies in Sydney. We're seeing serious erosion in the bottom tiers as smaller clubs simply run out of volunteers. Check out this post and look at the number of clubs that have disappeared in the last 20 years.

Death of a Subbies Club

So, where are we at with the State Of The Union right now? It looks from the outside like the Premier Clubs - except for Wildfires and Two Blues - are fielding their full complement of Grades + Colts AND we've got at least 3 clubs fielding a 4th Colts side in Div 3 every week: Easts for...

www.greenandgoldrugby.com

 

[Pfitzy]

In my mind that is always the juniors. We want to create a bond to the sport with kids. Parents will go where they think the kids get the most value and fun. There's plenty of Rugby Dads with kids as Aus Kick these days.

I also support the belief that Juniors is where it starts and should be heralded as "grassroots" alongside certain senior levels.

The difference with AusKick in Sydney at least: schools are treated as a nice-to-have, not the be all and end all for your formative years. Same as League - club comes first.

Until that happens in rugby you're going to continue to have dysfunction at U15, U18, and U20 level.

It is also why Junior clubs and Senior clubs don't always see eye-to-eye. They're operating either side of a vacuum in a resource-constrained environment.

 

[Pfitzy]

I like both comps and have played in both 'tiers' but it's silly we have separate comps with their own governing bodies. We're now discussing "who is grassroots, no I'm grassroots"...

 

[Braveheart81]

We're now discussing "who is grassroots, no I'm grassroots"...

The best bit about the Shute Shield is that they argue they're an elite competition or that they're the grassroots depending on which argument they're trying to make.*


*I like the Shute Shield and watch games fairly regularly.

 

[KOB1987]

I also support the belief that Juniors is where it starts and should be heralded as "grassroots" alongside certain senior levels.

The difference with AusKick in Sydney at least: schools are treated as a nice-to-have, not the be all and end all for your formative years. Same as League - club comes first.

Until that happens in rugby you're going to continue to have dysfunction at U15, U18, and U20 level.

It is also why Junior clubs and Senior clubs don't always see eye-to-eye. They're operating either side of a vacuum in a resource-constrained environment.

That 100% is grassroots. There are some instances (mostly in regional areas) where they can't support a junior system , in those cases the grassroots is the point where they can feasibly participate in the sport. Otherwise, yes you are correct.

 

[LevitatingSocks]

I don't have an issue with anything you say there, and will point out Brisbane had a bigger Subbies comp for a long while that was more than just a Friday night 6th Grade run around. That has changed, because the numbers are no longer there and critical mass of big clubs creates its own gravity.

This is what I fear for Subbies in Sydney. We're seeing serious erosion in the bottom tiers as smaller clubs simply run out of volunteers. Check out this post and look at the number of clubs that have disappeared in the last 20 years.

Death of a Subbies Club

So, where are we at with the State Of The Union right now? It looks from the outside like the Premier Clubs - except for Wildfires and Two Blues - are fielding their full complement of Grades + Colts AND we've got at least 3 clubs fielding a 4th Colts side in Div 3 every week: Easts for...

www.greenandgoldrugby.com

That's quite sad too see so many fold. Putting the genie back into the bottle once trends are in motion seems tough. No critical mass means losing out on social atmosphere, word of mouth recruitment, and colts. No colts means players mostly stick with their club once they become senior rugby eligible or quit entirely.

Things could change if the big clubs start getting a bit too greedy with rego to the point that players leave and decide to play rugby elsewhere. Right now it feels like fees are creeping toward $600 in the QPR and we're all lobsters in an uncomfortably warm pot having a moan about it but still paying anyway.

 

[Wallaby Man]

I don't have an issue with anything you say there, and will point out Brisbane had a bigger Subbies comp for a long while that was more than just a Friday night 6th Grade run around. That has changed, because the numbers are no longer there and critical mass of big clubs creates its own gravity.

This is what I fear for Subbies in Sydney. We're seeing serious erosion in the bottom tiers as smaller clubs simply run out of volunteers. Check out this post and look at the number of clubs that have disappeared in the last 20 years.

Death of a Subbies Club

So, where are we at with the State Of The Union right now? It looks from the outside like the Premier Clubs - except for Wildfires and Two Blues - are fielding their full complement of Grades + Colts AND we've got at least 3 clubs fielding a 4th Colts side in Div 3 every week: Easts for...

www.greenandgoldrugby.com

I’m a fan of the premier clubs, have been lucky enough to play at one. But so many that follow them have no idea what’s happening to clubs and competitions outside them. There is a perception that they are doing well, so the sport must be thriving whereas a little bit of the truth of it is that the sport is shrinking with the amount of clubs which means a select few are benefiting from the dispersion of playing stocks that previously would of played at another level or subbies side. They are essentially growing because the offerings around them are diminishing. I can only speak for the GC but what has happened here is the comp has shrunk, some clubs aren’t even fielding a top grade side. Some guys that in the past were good enough to play local top grade now travel to Brisbane to play mid grade there with no real hope of playing in the premier division. Then teams end up getting trashed with their best players gone, they stop playing and suddenly the comp bleeds players and the quality is a shade of what it once was. So while one team in a premier club might gain a few numbers, it can mean that another club has lost 10-15 in the process

 

[LevitatingSocks]

I’m a fan of the premier clubs, have been lucky enough to play at one. But so many that follow them have no idea what’s happening to clubs and competitions outside them. There is a perception that they are doing well, so the sport must be thriving whereas a little bit of the truth of it is that the sport is shrinking with the amount of clubs which means a select few are benefiting from the dispersion of playing stocks that previously would of played at another level or subbies side. They are essentially growing because the offerings around them are diminishing. I can only speak for the GC but what has happened here is the comp has shrunk, some clubs aren’t even fielding a top grade side. Some guys that in the past were good enough to play local top grade now travel to Brisbane to play mid grade there with no real hope of playing in the premier division. Then teams end up getting trashed with their best players gone, they stop playing and suddenly the comp bleeds players and the quality is a shade of what it once was. So while one team in a premier club might gain a few numbers, it can mean that another club has lost 10-15 in the process

Are they choosing to play for Bond or dispersing to teams all across Brisbane? I ask because I was under the impression Bond only fields 3 grades in a comp where most have 5 and still struggles to fill out that third grade sometimes.

 

[Pfitzy]

So while one team in a premier club might gain a few numbers, it can mean that another club has lost 10-15 in the process

Here in Western Sydney it happens all the time. Right now my club has about a dozen former players and a coach or two at other clubs in the area. The irony is some of them came FROM those clubs because they didn't like how it was being run...

Then you have Two Blues who are living on the edge of a passable First Grade side, but getting absolutely smacked in every other grade + Colts. Western Sydney has so much talent it could support league and union, but kids at U18 level are getting poached into other Colts programs.

We're also hamstrung by the system here. So many broken pathways.

The First & Second Division clubs in Subbies used to comprise a healthy contingent of Old Boys' setups. Now they're all lower Divisions.

 

[Adam84]

I know it was announced yesterday, but without the context of $$ it makes it hard to assess the value or importance.

Doran is suggesting it’s $multi-million deal and will be just shy of to $1milllion/annum come 2029. Which is a massive figure give what they used to receive.

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