Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
Not at all. At least, not until we know exactly what is meant by Centralisation.
Australian Rugby / RA
- Thread starter Dave Beat
- Start date
LeCheese
Greg Davis (50)
I think it's fair to assume that one of the review's core recommendations is likely to focus on the need for alignment (and improvement) of high performance programs across the country - i.e., the central tenet to RA's proposed model.
The Phoenix
Ward Prentice (10)
Hear Hear! He was my favourite player growing up. In such a star-studded backline for Queensland and Wallabies he was just a no nonsense, understated but key player. And everything he has done since has seemed to have mirrored his role on the field.
noscrumnolife
Bill Watson (15)
We've had a shitton of reviews commissioned before into the wider system of Australian Rugby. Inevitably, they always come to the same conclusion:
- Centralise
- Run a domestic competition
- Improve youth identification and development.
Inevitably, through a mixture of belligerence by the states and incompetence by RA, we end up ignoring them. The only reason we are doing them now is because we had our pants pulled down in front of the world.
HooperPocockSmith
Alfred Walker (16)
Hopefully Darlene Harrison can provide some insight into the changes that Swimming Australia and Rowing Australia (the two I can think of and I would imagine work in concert with the AIS) have implemented over the last 5 years that have resulted in very impressive performances on the world stage. The same could be said for the AIS' Basketball program - which I think Basketball Australia technically control now but they're based in Canberra. Some pretty impressive alumni of late.
I know Rowing Australia have been helped by Gina's $$$ but I'm sure there have been a number of changes made on the high performance front that could be of benefit to rugby. Perhaps she doesn't have intimate details of this but I'm sure she could source the expertise.
I know Rowing Australia have been helped by Gina's $$$ but I'm sure there have been a number of changes made on the high performance front that could be of benefit to rugby. Perhaps she doesn't have intimate details of this but I'm sure she could source the expertise.
Kenny Powers
Ron Walden (29)
I have asked a senior person within the AIS about what they think of how rugby conducts itself.
Without hesitation they said rugbys greatest short coming is it picks it future players as teenagers 14, 15, 16 year olds from a very small group of earlier (physical) developers.
What you need is a good structure to develop players up until the age of about 23 and forget about all these pathway managers for teenagers. They are a sinful waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere.
shanky
Darby Loudon (17)
Kenny
your intel is backed up by observation
in reality, the pathways are like the what they used to say about the Kangaroos. ..
’harder to get out of, than they are to get into’
Australian rugby will never be able to break out of the cycle until we address this specific problem. The pathway entrants are set early and confirmation bias does the rest.
your intel is backed up by observation
in reality, the pathways are like the what they used to say about the Kangaroos. ..
’harder to get out of, than they are to get into’
Australian rugby will never be able to break out of the cycle until we address this specific problem. The pathway entrants are set early and confirmation bias does the rest.
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The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
I wonder if weight for age in the junior ranks would help with this? It might shake people from the belief that just picking the big kids is best and maybe force these boys to work more on their skills.
Derpus
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I don't know anything about the pathways but don't we try and pick them young so we can secure them in the future. Sounds like what the dude says makes sense. But by then they are most likely not rugby players i think?
The Ghost of Raelene
David Codey (61)
This is no different to almost every sport and tbh 9/10 it works. Almost every major pro league sport in the world have this approach now.
AIS spend a lot of money identifying and training athletes who dominate at their age through physical development. Wether it be T&F, Diving, Basketball, Gymnastics etc.
Right now they’d be out there (should be) talent Identifying kids who will be the prime age by the Brisbane Olympics 2032, so are probably aged between 13-20.
There is a problem with raising the perceived capture age for two reason.
1. Competition for talent from not only our own Clubs but other sports.
2. People aren’t playing as long to even identify them at 23. Days are gone of your 1st Grade side having 5-6 30 year olds but being made up of blokes in their mid 20s. If you haven’t progressed by 22,23 a lot are just hanging them up.
zer0
John Thornett (49)
FWIW, the Irish system has found that high school age ID + training is paramount (presumably the earlier the better). They also work off a similar sounding private/elite school system to Australia.
Didn't realise the other discussion was on the NPC thread so moving it here as seems more appropriate.
Was digging around for some info on the Irish development system and came across this report from 2019. Seems the private/elite school development system works for Ireland because of the greater, more consistent, control they get over young aspirant pro players. idk how you can reconcile that with a more egalitarian schools structure where players would be more distributed and less supervised.
Irish Rugby Player Pathway | Evolution of a Player Development System - Setanta College Blog
Former Director of Fitness with the IRFU, Dr. Liam Hennessy, looks at the creation and evolution of the Irish Rugby's Player Development System (LTAD).www.setantacollege.com
Where players come from
Players that go on to represent their country seem to come from key schools as they transition through the provincial sub-academies and academies to the professional game. Typically between 70% and 85% of players who represent Ireland graduate upwards from these key schools. The close link between schools and the academies and their outreach regions (mainly clubs) in particular seems to be the true ‘key’ in the pathway of development. For example, the Leinster sub-academy has what can only be considered an outstanding conversion rate of 85% to the professional game. Of significance is also the fact that approximately 65% of the current Irish international players come through the Leinster sub-academy spearheaded since its founding by Dave Fagan. While this is a great tribute to the work of Dave and his colleagues, it does highlight a possible gap in other development sections. Once addressed they can also contribute to a greater extent to the development of elite players.
Longevity
Of all the markers that can be used to assess the effectiveness of a development pathway, a player’s longevity at the highest level of the game is one that reflects a more holistic reference that combines several important yet often unappreciated demands on the player. The factors that we have seen that impact on the years spent plying their trade include their early period of development, their capacity to limit injury incidence, the management of their game number in any given year, their lifestyle approach and their, would you believe, sleep quality/duration.
Several other factors such as fitness levels and physical measurements such as stature, body weight, and body fat were considered. Also included were other markers associated with mood. The surprising outcome however was that the single biggest contributor to a long career was the years devoted to physical development before starting on a professional contract. We call this ‘Training Age’ and this seems to be one of the main factors in influencing and impacting the longevity of a pro player in Ireland. In simple terms, the more years spent under a supervised fitness specialist such as a strength and conditioning coach, the greater the possibility of having an extended career as a player.
Workload
One other major finding, and one which will raise some eyebrows, is that it seems that those players who completed a higher workload in the late teen years and in their early 20’s seem to have also gained an advantage in terms of their capacity to endure a career in the professional game. While this is not the first time that we have found this ‘paradoxical’ relationship between workload and performance (Hogan and Jordan 2016), it is one which will no doubt prompt discussion as to how much work is required during the development stage to become a robust player in team sports.
Summary
The development of the Irish Rugby player over the last 3 decades was initiated by Stephen Aboud, who is now the Italian Rugby Technical Director. He and his colleagues within coaching, fitness, physiotherapy, and nutritional fields guided this development pathway long before a formal staged pathway (LTAD) was popularised in the 2000s.
In assessing the evolution of the pathway it is clear that Ireland has benefitted significantly from this early phase of player development. It may surprise many but there is still a limited number of schools who literally produce the majority of Ireland’s players.
From this structured development, where training age is increased especially from the junior stage through to the final secondary school year, players then transition to the sub-academy within the provinces. These academies are arguably the most productive academies in the world of team sports. There are still opportunities to forge a more effective development pathway, mainly through continued and greater support of schools, (sub) academies, and more focused support of clubs at all stages of development. Nevertheless, the current synergy between schools and academies is seen as a world-class development pathway, regardless of the limitation in player numbers.
Rebel man
John Thornett (49)
Every sport does this, if you look at Aussie rules half of the guys that play in the ruck in early years of rep footy and pathway teams never make it to 6ft. It’s part of the reason why they tell you big fellas take a while to develop at senior level as most of them are later entrances to the pathway programs.
This isn’t saying that rugby shouldn’t try and be better but the problem is more wide spread
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
You really shouldn’t need to.
I’ve seen big kids play against my son and my son himself has always been a solid unit but I have always told him, everyone will catch up. The big, strong, fast kid at 13 is often just average by the time you get to 18.
Work on the fundamentals and basics. Work on the things you can control - work rate, fitness, technique etc and be patient.
Ignoto
Peter Sullivan (51)
But is the AIS actively finding these athletes I.e. Going out to whatever grass roots games are going on and plucking kids from there?
Or, are they simply relying on kids to be partaking in a sport that competes at a State and National level and redirecting them from doing Basketball to Rowing, Gymnastics to Volleyball etc based on attributes that the person has which is better suited for a different sport.
Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
Unsure if it still exists, but years ago the AIS had a program where they went to schools and ran kids through physical testing and benchmarking. They had a set of metrics that they were measuring them against for each sport like rowing, and based on the results kids were invited into training camps for then relevant sport/discipline in which they displayed attributes for.
Kids were then invited into development squads with AIS, the squads got smaller and smaller as they progressed through.
these were sports that the kids had never played before. Unsure if it eventuated in any elite level success.
Ignoto
Peter Sullivan (51)
Yeah this rings a bell for what I remember as well. At the same time, it's such low effort "identification" ie someone outside of the AIS runs the tests and submits the results.
The Ghost of Raelene
David Codey (61)
Not sure how much of active seeking is going on now. We always hear about the Aerial skiing and how they pluck them from gymnastics.
Sports seem to do this though with the AFLW having to fill spots they were going after Rowers.
AIS heavily relies on the state bodies and Clubs but may shift with Olympic funding that will come.
I think our junior systems are as good as they’ve been in a long time with the 16s, 18, 19s. I’d like to see a couple more sides in the 18s & 19s to spread the net but a kid from NSW or QLD right now could play 20 games of state rugby along side School, Club and lower rep by the time they get to a U20s level. They are getting to that 20-25 game per year mark we need them to play.
they’ve done this in Qld at least over the last 12 months or so as part of the 2032 development program. I’m sure it will continue for a few more years.
Wallaby Man
Nev Cottrell (35)
This was me, they identified a group of us that were excelling in certain physical aspects. We went to a location where they conducted extensive testing from wing span to power with tests like sitting down and pushing a medicine ball as far as you could go, vertical leap, etc. We then went to an AIS funded location with several presentations provided us with potentially sporting pathways from our physical attributes. I would have been 14 at the time. I was probably a little too self absorbed with my rugby at the time but many in the wider group went on to represent Australia at the Olympics in sports they had never played before.
Anyone that thinks it’s organic growth in the modern world is having a laugh. A lot of kids naturally gravitate to sports they might be suited for but there so much catered training towards specialization at the 14-15-16yrs you’re really struggling to compete without this training at an older age.