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Australian Rugby / RA

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Are these three statements true, though? Has anyone got the figures?

They are throwaway lines that are bandied around a bit in this debate, with no hard facts to back them up - and I know for certain that soccer charges considerably more for junior registration.

A cursorary google search reveals this article: http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2...-over-the-high-cost-of-childrens-sports-poll/ which shows rugby is about on par with other codes, though it may have risen slightly since due to the participation levy.

They could well be true, but I'd like to see more than just broad statements that 'code X do way more at grassroots than rugby'.
.
I didn't quote Soccer, when you are competing on cost you don't worry about the most expensive option.A mate of mine says he pays about $90 per kid for his 3 to play AFL.
Local league teams charge $140 which includes Jersey,shorts,socks & training shirt.
Local Rugby $160 + extra for shorts & socks
(Northern Beaches)
In regards to financial support,it's been covered before on this thread,and the numbers that NRL spends on grassroots is mind boggling,and dwarfs the paltry ARU allocation in both $ terms and % turnover.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
At the same time ARU lists some of the following (not an exhaustive list) which sound like grass roots input to me. I'm not close enough though, so would to hear how effective those involved found it:
VIVA 7s
Australian Sports Commission -Sporting Schools Programme
National Rugby Week
NAIDOC cup
Pathways to Gold
Junior Gold Cup
There are others


On paper it's wow, KIS
Keep
It
Simple
Seriously who is going to execute it, it is simple we need to increase the number of juniors playing.
Mini's - increase particitipation.
Juniors - developlment
Seniors - retention.
  • Hearing from someone actively involved in Viva - didn't rate it.
Has anyone actually seen the 5 year plan??

Would love to have a look and see whether the rhetoric from both sides matches what is actually on paper.
.
I'm itching to see it, and trusting it involves the assumptions, roles, and how it is going to be implemented so there is responsible entity's that are accountable.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
I didn't quote Soccer, when you are competing on cost you don't worry about the most expensive option.A mate of mine says he pays about $90 per kid for his 3 to play AFL.
Local league teams charge $140 which includes Jersey,shorts,socks & training shirt.
Local Rugby $160 + extra for shorts & socks
(Northern Beaches)
In regards to financial support,it's been covered before on this thread,and the numbers that NRL spends on grassroots is mind boggling,and dwarfs the paltry ARU allocation in both $ terms and % turnover.


ILTW

These costs for AFL and Rugby League differ club to club. How much is the reduction subsidized by the clubs themselves?

If so, how is it the ARU's issue to combat that?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The biggest problem the ARU faces it that things have drifted at all levels for so many years that they're now a long way behind without the funds to really change things.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
the Rugby clubs are behind the 8 ball,as the other two codes are not levied at grassroots level


What's that got to do with the AFL and RL Clubs subsidizing this cost?

Rugby is "levied" at grassroots level per player. I used quotation marks because every financial report shows more money going to state union grants and grassroots than coming in.

What relevance is this to AFL and RL Clubs being more commercially savvy, gaining sponsorship and subsidizing this per player cost.

You cannot just look at what you pay for RU, AFL and RL and make the assumption that the difference is the ARU's fault.

You have to consider what each pays per player to the admin above. Some clubs absorb these losses through their own gains in club revenue. If your mate's RL club itself is paying half the kid's fees and your RU club is paying none, why is this the ARU's fault for "gouging" the kids so to speak?
 

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David Codey (61)
Huh?
so automatically the grassroots clubs are less commercially savvy,the moment the ARU places a levy on Rugby clubs?
And the levy has zero impact on this?

Do you have kids?
What's their experience with ARU development?

My kids have literally over 50 seasons of Rugby between them if you count both Schools & Village over the last 15 years.
Number of visits from ARU development guys?
ZERO

I have a brother who is a school teacher who is bombarded with requests for AFL to conduct sessions at his School.
They are there frequently as a result.
Without a levy from H/O on jnr clubs!
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
You're avoiding the point.

If RL and AFL grassroots clubs are able to subsidize fees and RU clubs aren't, then they are automatically less commercial savvy than RL and AFL grassroots clubs.

The levy has zero impact on this. It may increase the amount, but it doesn't impact the ability to do this equally (i.e. if an AFL club subsidizes $50 of cost per player, then why can't RU clubs).

as for ARU development guys. Not sure why I'd have any experience with them. The ARU grants millions annually to the state unions for this...
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Did individual fees increase as a result of these levies?
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Huh?
so automatically the grassroots clubs are less commercially savvy,the moment the ARU places a levy on Rugby clubs?
And the levy has zero impact on this?

Do you have kids?
What's their experience with ARU development?

My kids have literally over 50 seasons of Rugby between them if you count both Schools & Village over the last 15 years.
Number of visits from ARU development guys?
ZERO

I have a brother who is a school teacher who is bombarded with requests for AFL to conduct sessions at his School.
They are there frequently as a result.
Without a levy from H/O on jnr clubs!


What's interesting is a number of posters are seeking explanations, business plans with assumptions - or at least something that shows that the ARU is looking to invest and grow Australian Rugby - but I haven't seen anything.

Not once have I referenced hand outs, I have said there should be return for results - that's how business works.

But over recent years the ARU has added levies, asked clubs to take a hit, had clubs invest in the NRC. Whilst the ARU has slashed out cash to hold up / save Super Franchises etc.

Is this solely the ARU, no, like rugby we need to be in it together as a team. But as you accurately put it the grass roots of Australian Rugby has been neglected BIG TIME.

TWAS use to be Rebels, now he has a Koala - he frustrates the shit of of me with his contributions with no plan, or reasoning. To him Subbies will solve the issues of the world. It appears he thinks rugby starts at seniors and clubs have no input in keeping junior rugby players playing the game, or playing our code and not drifting elswhere.

So kids that cant get into Private School, don't have a high school that plays rugby, and their club slowly disappeared like;

I notice that my junior club Beecroft Cherrybrook have changed their name to the 'Northern Barbarians'. On their website they state they get players from 'Cheltenham, Beecroft, Pennant Hills, West Pennant Hills, Cherrybrook, Castle Hill, Thornleigh, Westleigh and from as far as North Rocks, Denistone and Dural

Now to me this is sad for a number of reasons. They are a well run club but they originally started as Pennant Hills, then Beecroft, then Beecroft-Cherrybrook and now this. As a strong club they have swallowed up players from everywhere and in the Eastwood district you now have two of the smaller clubs, Hillview and Epping merging to form Central Eastwood. In my day (92,93,94) Beecroft played in the Met west comp with clubs from the Eastwood, Parramatta and there was the odd club from Penrith or West Harbour (Wests Juniors). The Under 10's-17's would play a home game against an opposition club in basically every grade.

Eastwood Juniors must be in real strife. In the older age groups they must only have Beecroft and Dural to pick rep teams from???


Rugby has fallen a long way from my days as a junior player. What is the answer? I have no idea but we need to get kids playing the sport or the number are going to shrink even further!

So what do they do then in their schooling years (year 7 - year 12)

Stats over recent years do not lie - they are pure FACTS numbers are dropping.

Business plans on paper are cheap talk and are worth jack shit until they are implemented, managed, reviewed, and met. You need to be able to execute the items on there, and execute them well so results are achieved.
As I said
Keep It Simple.

So from Year 7 - 12 rugby declines, what next.

You're avoiding the point.



And i haven't missed any point - ARU needs to work on Australian Grass Roots Rugby.
I like some of the things the ARU have implemented over recent years - I'm hoping they can continue some of their good work were it matter most
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
No David. You're lying and simplifying.

I was never a Rebels fan. I just did and again live in Melbourne.

I don't think subbies will solve the woes. I fail to see what the current Shute Shield clubs provide, which strong subbies clubs could not within a few years if given the opportunity to. Which brings me to my point that SS Clubs are not so irreplaceable that they should be propped up.

Why is Manly so great that Mosman given a couple of years could not replace you?

Any players or coaches who have aspirations of going further would go there to start with.

They already have 5 grades and colts. That's with players with higher aspirations going to an SS Club.

Obviously this is not a desirable outcome because in those few years, things go backwards. I'm just saying the view that you are so irreplaceableis arrogant, and based on the fact that SS is a closed shop, and there is no benefit to a Kentwell Cup club trying to get to your level because their is no mechanism for promotion.

And also the fact that Shute Shield represents about 25% of registered players in Sydney alone. With Subbies accounting for the rest.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
The ARU wants to direct money into junior rugby. They clearly don't think rugby starts at seniors.

In fact I've always said that's where funding should be prioritized.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
No David. You're lying and simplifying.

I was never a Rebels fan. I just did and again live in Melbourne.


So now I'm lying - really.

Instead of your continual rant about the Shute Shield as it is constant - why don't you spend some time researching, and then sharing ideas about growing and improving Grass Roots Australian rugby.

It is rant rant rant.
 

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David Codey (61)
You're avoiding the point.

If RL and AFL grassroots clubs are able to subsidize fees and RU clubs aren't, then they are automatically less commercial savvy than RL and AFL grassroots clubs.

The levy has zero impact on this. It may increase the amount, but it doesn't impact the ability to do this equally (i.e. if an AFL club subsidizes $50 of cost per player, then why can't RU clubs).

as for ARU development guys. Not sure why I'd have any experience with them. The ARU grants millions annually to the state unions for this.
on what basis do you surmise the other codes local jnr clubs are subsidising rego fees to a higher level than local jnr Rugby clubs?
It's been a few years,but when I was involved in both jnr League & Rugby clubs,the cost to register teams were almost identical.(before the BP levy)

Regarding the development guys,you're being obtuse.
ARU,State Union guys,whatever,they are myths in my experience.
Never been sighted.....
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Regarding the development guys,you're being obtuse.
ARU,State Union guys,whatever,they are myths in my experience.
Never been sighted...


  • Given my recent efforts and research they are there, very helpful, but also very under resourced - there is the problem. So you find a solution and make it better.
  • Given the time and effort AFL has laid bedrock that is hard to move, so lets work on building on top of the bedrock.
  • Very under resourced - so hence my model and suggestions State Unions engage their premier clubs to work with grass roots (clubs & schools).
 

dru

Tim Horan (67)
Let me try at a couple of arguments that could be made by the SS reps, but are not, but might push matters without the predictable dead end that Dwyer and Papworth are sending us on. Someone would need to check my understanding of the figures.

1: In 2014 only $3.7M was directly invested in the state unions. In the over all budget we consider the amount underwhelming and ask the ARU to better define how the unions sit within priorities, and how the ARU is working to see the figure increased.

2: In 2014 only $0.48M was allocated to NSW less than 15% of the states and territory allocation. On any metric NSW contributes much more than this allocation. Participation, competition participation, adult players, number of clubs, Franchise players and Wallabies. Explain why this allocation should not be enhanced to reflect the very real NSW contribution. What will be done in future to ensure very real contributions are better rewarded?

3. The Shute Shield has held an important and traditional role providing a pathway to representational rugby and more recently professional rugby. It is understood that the ARU will not support professionalism in the Shute Shield and the NRC is the vehicle for achieving this. Some considerable transformation is required in going forward, the brunt of which in NSW is being born by the Shute Shield clubs. Will the ARU assist in planning and funding this transformation given the NSW situation is unique in Australia?

Now I wouldnt necessarily support these questions, but I would see them as legit.

A better case needs to be made than the Dwyer/Papworth attack.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Dru fair.
  • So Premier Clubs grow numbers.
  • ARU gets a return because of Levies.
  • Premier Clubs stay engaged and benefit because of players.
  • Supporter numbers grow ARU benefits.
Work out financial structure for this to happen, and there could be multiple wins.
  • retaining the do nothing get nothing.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
on what basis do you surmise the other codes local jnr clubs are subsidising rego fees to a higher level than local jnr Rugby clubs?


Based on the costs varying club to club in the same regions for AFL and RL.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
So now I'm lying - really.

Instead of your continual rant about the Shute Shield as it is constant - why don't you spend some time researching, and then sharing ideas about growing and improving Grass Roots Australian rugby.

It is rant rant rant.


I am.

Focus funding towards Junior rugby to assist in the growth at that level.

It's what I have repeatedly said.
 
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