Australia Vs. England, Twickenham, 2nd November 2013

[Brumbies Guy]

I don't see TPN coming into the squad, and then the bench, until we play the Italians.

He's already there

 

[Hawko]

We shall see about Palu. If he gets back to his form of a few years ago, I will gladly eat humble pie, but honestly, I can't see that happening atm. BTW I think Higgers played better at 8 for the Rebels before his injury than Cliff has in the past 12 months.

Last year's EOYT was not a few years ago and test rugby is a big step up from Super rugby. Higgers has great potential as a Wallaby but he has NEVER played better at international level than Palu last year and this year.

 

[BDA]

Last year's EOYT was not a few years ago and test rugby is a big step up from Super rugby. Higgers has great potential as a Wallaby but he has NEVER played better at international level than Palu last year and this year.

This is true, although I think it's worth noting that Higgers really seemed to be hitting a new level before his injury this year. At the Reds set-up he played a bit wider and did less grunt work (presumably by design). That style didn't translate as well for test rugby, unsurprisingly. At the Rebels he was really tasked with getting the team on the front foot and I thought his tight contact work came on leaps and bounds last year.

It is true that Super form is not a reflection on test form but I think its worth acknowledging the developments in Higgers game which was endearing so many to the idea of him at 8. I really think 2014 is going to be the year that Higgers establishes himself as the Schalk Burger of Oz rugby.

Palu should still be considered a starter at 8 if fit, but he will need to be (and will be) managed with kid gloves over the next two years. Palu is eyeing a swan song at the 2015 world cup and despite what others think I expect him to be there. I'd say EOYTs are out of the question and I'd probably like to see the Tahs play him off the bench this year, to limit his miles.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Last year's EOYT was not a few years ago and test rugby is a big step up from Super rugby. Higgers has great potential as a Wallaby but he has NEVER played better at international level than Palu last year and this year.

I know I'm probably in the minority, but certainly not alone, in thinking that Cliff's form in the lions tests was not so good. I have previously commented that while he has the stats to show how far he runs, in those games he started so far behind the gain line that he rarely crossed it to gain an advantage. Think his recent form has been way off his best.

 

[cyclopath]

I know I'm probably in the minority, but certainly not alone, in thinking that Cliff's form in the lions tests was not so good. I have previously commented that while he has the stats to show how far he runs, in those games he started so far behind the gain line that he rarely crossed it to gain an advantage. Think his recent form has been way off his best.

Which of our runners did get over the gain line effectively? I think the general play in that regard was pretty average. Many forwards with static starts getting smashed.

 

[lewisr]

Actually I think it was George Smith who set the standard in regards for this type of play. He had it from the start where as Richie has adapted his game over the years. The All Blacks do it bloody well as you say though. That is actually one thing we have seen in in 2013 when talking about opensides in Australia. Hooper has the running game and Gill has the on the ball game but seeing George Smith again this year was a reminder of what you get when a 7 has the whole package. George Smith had a decent linking game though I agree with you in saying Hooper lacks it.

How the hell did we let him go?

 

[Zander]

I know I'm probably in the minority, but certainly not alone, in thinking that Cliff's form in the lions tests was not so good. I have previously commented that while he has the stats to show how far he runs, in those games he started so far behind the gain line that he rarely crossed it to gain an advantage. Think his recent form has been way off his best.

Considering he came 2nd in the JEM those Lions games must've rated very highly for him.

 

[Braveheart81]

How the hell did we let him go?

The Wallabies were struggling, George Smith's form was average, he got dropped from the Wallabies starting side in favour of Pocock and then he signed a contract to play overseas.

During most if not all of his time overseas he has been Australia's highest salaried rugby player. His $3.3 million contract with Suntory was a record for an Australian rugby player I believe.

People act like he was forced out but that is absolutely rewriting history.

Of course it would have been great if he'd stayed in Australia for his entire career, but that is one of the realities of professional sport.

 

[Slim 293]

Not entirely true.......

Deans never did drop Smith like Jones and Connolly before him, but rather he alternated between Smith and Pocock every week on the EOYT.........

 

[BDA]

yeah you're both right to a degree. Smith jumped before he was pushed. It seems like he saw the writing on the wall (namely (a) Deans had a habit of discarding veterans and (b) Pocock was probably the preferred 7 at that time) and decided he'd focus his energy elsewhere and make some retirement money.

The situation has only been highlighted by Pocock's absence at important times (during the world cup and in the Lions series).

Not sure why we are debating George Smith now. We cant even find room for Hooper and Pocock.

 

[Hawko]

Not entirely true...

Deans never did drop Smith like Jones and Connolly before him, but rather he alternated between Smith and Pocock every week on the EOYT...

I'm not sure if you mean by this comment that this is what "forced George out" but I would be really happy to see much more rotation in our test team. The Kiwis do it quietly and without fanfare. Why was Eaton given a start this championship? Why have they been rotating the three hookers for the whole tournament? Why do key players get sabbaticals over there and nowhere else? Because they understand better than any other team that there is too much football at Super and test level and so they deliberately monitor and rest their players especially their older ones. (Note that they are playing less tests per year than we are!) We just play our best till they break and hope the reserve will be able to step in. There is a reason that half our back five stock in the pack are in team rehab, most with shoulder reconstructions.

The EOYT is almost perfectly set up. The three hard games are a fortnight apart, with the two easier games in between. IMO all the squad should start in a minimum of two games and definitely no player should start all five regardless of who they are, especially those who have played most of the Lions and RC games. Horwill, who is looking totally jaded should sit out the second and fourth game completely and come off the bench in one of the other three. You could almost pick the teams now and get it 90% right. I won't go through every position but take the front row as an example:

• England's scrum is weak with Corbiserio out, but otherwise it will be a tough hard game; start with Slipper, Moore and Alexander with Robinson, Fainga'a and Kepu in reserve.
• Italy's scrum is strong but it will be an easier game; start with Robinson, TPN and Kepu with Slipper, Fainga'a and Ryan on the bench.
• Ireland will be strong everywhere but probably not yet gelling together in their new coaching system; start with Robinson, Moore and Kepu with Slipper, TPN and Alexander on the bench.
• Scotland will be good in the scrum but weak elsewhere. Start Slipper, Fainga'a and Ryan with Robinson, TPN and Alexander in reserve.
• Wales will be the toughest game. Start Robinson, Moore and Kepu with Slipper, TPN and Alexander in reserve.

The current workload is absolutely killing our players and no one seems to notice or care. The ARU are desperate (they'd play Lithuainia as well if they thought there was money in it) and its up to Link to see that players get the recovery they need. That means using the whole squad, not just waiting to see who breaks and plugging the gap. As I see it Slipper, Moore, Alexander, Horwill, Simmons, Hooper, Mowen, maybe Fardy, Genia, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Lilo, To'omua maybe, and Folau have all been playing week-in week-out since late January. None of them need five more tests back to back.

 

[Zander]

Would be interesting to tally up the number of Tests Australia has played since 2011 to everyone else. My guess the next closest, NZ would be at least 5 behind.

 

[Bullrush]

Exactly Charger, I not knocking Pocock by any means, just saying he hasn't played any good games of International rugby for over 2 years, so lets just hope he can recapture his form, also all the talk of Hooper stepping aside for him, well you don't select someone for 2 year old form.

I beg to differ.......

 

[The Red Baron]

I beg to differ...

View attachment 4264

He wasn't all that crash hot until the Bulls gave him his number back.. And it took him a few games before he dunked again!

But in all seriousness, you make a good point. MJ arguably ended up being a better overall player during his second stint, quite an achievement considering how good he was the first time around. Hopefully Pocock ends up the same.

 

[Scrubber2050]

shit Bullrush - number 45 doesn't even look like Poey

 

[Scrubber2050]

Hawko - good, relevant post and I agree with you 100% in respect of the piggies but with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) as the only back - Genia needs to continue to reignite his form, the layoff has done him the world of good and maybe he should continue - with less minutes, particularly if the score gets out there a bit

 

[badabing59]

Would be interesting to tally up the number of Tests Australia has played since 2011 to everyone else. My guess the next closest, NZ would be at least 5 behind.

Australia:
2012 15 tests
2013 10 tests

NZ:
2012 14 tests
2013 10 tests

Sth. Africa:
2012 12 tests
2013 9 tests

England:
2012 12 tests
2013 7 tests

Wales:
2012 13 tests
2013 7 tests

France:
2012 10 tests
2013 8 tests

These stats don't include EYOT for 2013. I'd say it's a clever ploy by the ARU to get to #1 in rankings by simply playing more tests-screw player welfare.

 

[Groucho]

I know I'm probably in the minority, but certainly not alone, in thinking that Cliff's form in the lions tests was not so good. I have previously commented that while he has the stats to show how far he runs, in those games he started so far behind the gain line that he rarely crossed it to gain an advantage. Think his recent form has been way off his best.

How far forward runners start behind the gain line is a reflection of how deep the flyhalf stands, not the "form" or otherwise of the ball carriers.

 

[FilthRugby]

I know this is the wrong thread, but does anyone know the Wallabies 'Team of the Century'? I've been looking online and can't seem to find it.

 

[Scotty]

How far forward runners start behind the gain line is a reflection of how deep the flyhalf stands, not the "form" or otherwise of the ball carriers.

Are you suggesting that Palu runs primarily off the 10?