Australia v South Africa - Perth - 6 September 2014

[A mutterer]

Not doing your job well = not doing your job

 

[Pfitzy]

The locks are doing their job. They aren't doing it particularly well though.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The locks are going out there playing a locks role. Having a few runs, making tight tackles and hitting rucks. They are getting beaten in the line out and some aspects of play by their opposites. However, there's really no other standout locks to replace them, the two most consistent locks of the last year. They're doing what they're job is, but aren't better than their opponents at it. Considering there is only one other lock in the squad that fills the role, despite what the peanut gallery on here think, they probably aren't going to come under a lot of scrutiny unless a Jones, Skelton, Wykes, etc. puts in a couple of stand out performances in the NRC. Seeing him live I like the look of Jeffries as a lock. But it's early days there.

Palu is doing a lot of work, but he's not offering real impact with the ball in hand. There are 2 other number 8 options in the squad so he is going to come under more scrutiny at the selection table.

The fact of the matter is every team has strengths and weaknesses relative to other teams. It's how they even out over the team that matters providing they can all do the role required.

 

[Braveheart81]

Surely McKenzie must be mulling over whether or not changing the mix from having both Carter and Simmons starting will improve the overall impact of our forward pack.

Our lineout is not performing well enough to say that putting Skelton into the side will be too costly in that regard. Likewise, it's not making Rob Simmons as the line out caller as essential as it possibly was a while ago.

We have Palu who isn't providing enough ball running as we need him too but doing more tackling than we want him to.

We also have Fardy who for some reason (whether or not entirely due to his own form) is providing far less impact than last year.

I don't think you can look at anything in isolation and whilst I completely agree that Simmons and Carter are inferior to either their NZ and SA counterparts so we can't expect them to win that contest, it must be considered that perhaps they're causing issues with the overall balance of our forward pack as well.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I refuse to accept that Palu making too many tackles is affecting his ball running. He isn't clocking up ridiculous numbers (they are good numbers yes) so this should not be affecting him when we have the ball. Also you need to look at the tackles made. For instance the tackles Simmons made on Piennar and Fardy made on Habana Palu likely couldn't have made and take more effort than a single tackle.

Few players are providing stand out performances. So of course Link would be weighing up a lot of selections, but the ones with performing alternatives will be those which get the most consideration.

 

[A mutterer]

The locks are going out there playing a locks role. Having a few runs, making tight tackles and hitting rucks. They are getting beaten in the line out and some aspects of play by their opposites. However, there's really no other standout locks to replace them, the two most consistent locks of the last year. They're doing what they're job is, but aren't better than their opponents at it. Considering there is only one other lock in the squad that fills the role, despite what the peanut gallery on here think, they probably aren't going to come under a lot of scrutiny unless a Jones, Skelton, Wykes, etc. puts in a couple of stand out performances in the NRC. Seeing him live I like the look of Jeffries as a lock. But it's early days there.

Palu is doing a lot of work, but he's not offering real impact with the ball in hand. There are 2 other number 8 options in the squad so he is going to come under more scrutiny at the selection table.

The fact of the matter is every team has strengths and weaknesses relative to other teams. It's how they even out over the team that matters providing they can all do the role required.

This isn't a kids competition where every gets a trophy for participating.

 

[Train Without a Station]

That has nothing to do with my comment.

You pick teams from the pool available. There's more form back rowers than there is locks so even though the locks are under performing worse, the back row will come under more heavy scrutiny in selection.

Previously it was the halves because they were the biggest selection debate.

 

[Train Without a Station]

So I'll give you an equally relevant response.

"We don't have an unlimited talent pool of performing players in every position".

 

[A mutterer]

I think your argument is flawed as you fundamentally apply different criteria to judge respective performances.

The stats show that cliffy was as or more effective than the pair of locks combined in the last match (and off the top of my head the previous one as well). If you were to add points conceded as a consequence of activity (or points gained) then cliffy is still far more effective even when he is not making runs + metres + line breaks. As such, logically the issue at hand remains Simmons and carter and diversting attention away from these 2 is counterproductive.

And arguing that this is a result of a lack of depth still avoids the fundamental issue that these guys aren't doing their jobs. I can't blame the relatively low unemployment rate for doing a shit job at work so I fail to see how this argument could possibly stack up here.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm not defending their performance. I'm saying that's why they are still there.

Wycliff Palu made 13 tackles on Saturday, had 4 runs, 0 offloads and 0 tackle busts.

Rob Simmons made 9 tackles, had 6 runs, 1 offload and 0 tackle busts.

Sam Carter made 3 tackles, had 2 runs, 0 offloads and 0 tackle busts.

For reference Duane Vermulan made 13 tackles, had 9 runs, 0 offloads and 1 tackle bust.

Eben Etzebeth made 8 tackles, had 5 runs, 1 offload and 0 tackle busts.

Victor Matfield made 13 tackles with 3 misses, had 2 runs, 0 offloads and 0 tackle busts.

Brodie Retallick made 10 tackles, had 1 run, 0 offloads and 0 tackle busts.

Sam Whitelock made 5 tackles, had 3 runs, 0 offloads and 1 tackle bust.

Kieran Read made 6 tackles with 2 misses, 8 runs, 0 offloads, 0 tackle busts and 1 line break create.

Look at those stats. They tell me that Rob Simmons is picking up the slack for the number 8!

Now we all know that's not at all true. But it it wasn't for some boneheaded penalties he would have had a decent game for a lock, getting through the work expected of a lock and close to his contemporaries.

 

[Braveheart81]

It seems to me that Carter is really the player going missing currently.

Two weeks ago against NZ he only made 2 tackles in 80 minutes and followed that up with 3 here against South Africa.


I agree that if Simmons hadn't given away four penalties, his game would have rated as alright. He has to take some blame for how poor our lineout was though. 70% on our own throw and 0% on the oppositions is not a pass mark for your lineout caller.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I agree that if Simmons hadn't given away four penalties, his game would have rated as alright. He has to take some blame for how poor our lineout was though. 70% on our own throw and 0% on the oppositions is not a pass mark for your lineout caller.

Spot on. Did his job around the park. Alright would be a fair assessment.

Hanson had a couple of problems but that doesn't absolve Simmons from blame either. He made his own errors too. If the jumpers were up there providing clear targets that were being missed you could say they did their job but clearly Simmons must take a good chunk of blame. Even if he was the cause of losing one, in his role he needs to be taking 100% and winning one or two. The fact that they barely challenged any Bok ball was the most frustrating. Very hard to win line outs that you do not contest isn't it?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Just for the sake of it. These are from Fox Sports so if somebody has a better source please tell me:

Sam Carter
Game 1: 9 runs, 1 tackle bust, 7 tackles, 3 line out takes.
Game 2: 4 runs, 2 tackles, 1 missed tackle, 2 penalties, 2 errors, 3 line out takes.
Game 3: 2 runs, 3 tackles, 1 penalty, 2 line out takes.

Rob Simmons
Game 1: 4 runs, 1 tackle bust, 5 tackles, 2 missed, 2 line out takes.
Game 2: 3 runs, 9 tackles, 1 missed tackle, 2 penalties, 5 line out takes.
Game 3: 6 runs, 1 offload, 9 tackles, 4 penalties.

Scott Fardy
Game 1: 9 runs, 1 offload, 3 tackles, 2 missed tackles, 2 penalties, 1 line out steal.
Game 2: 5 runs, 5 tackles, 1 missed tackle, 2 pilfers, 2 penalties.
Game 3: 6 runs, 4 tackles, 1 missed tackle, 1 penalty.

Wycliff Palu
Game 1: 11 runs, 2 tackle busts, 1 offload, 7 tackles, 1 missed tackle, 2 line out takes.
Game 2: 5 runs, 14 tackles, 1 missed tackle, 2 pilfers, 1 error.
Game 3: 4 runs, 13 tackles, 1 pilfer, 1 error, 1 line out take.

 

[Braveheart81]

The stats say to me that Fardy and Carter need to do a lot more work, particularly on defence for Carter and a bit of both for Fardy. Palu needs to do more ball carrying and probably a little less tackling and Simmons and Fardy need to reduce the number of penalties they give away.

Looking at Palu's stats from the 2nd and 3rd games, doubling the number of runs and halving the number of tackles seems like a good mix.

Hopefully part of the issue is that someone not doing their job is meaning everyone is off their best. Some improvement from one of them will hopefully have a cumulative effect to result in them all having a bigger impact on the game.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I think in the context of the competition, Palu needs to just be running with the ball more. Vermulen made as many tackles. They were big hits (just ask Slipper haha) and still had 9 carries despite the fact we had more possession. His Sydney game from a stats perspective was a very good effort though.

Carter needs to up his output by a lot. Fardy needs to up his output by a little.

Simmons needs to cut the stupid penalties. Remember that his YC in Auckland as part of that two would have been a pedantic penalty let alone YC. any more than an average of 1 per game for a forward is too much though. He also needs to dominate the air. Specifically starting by attacking opposition ball.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

TWAS, firstly thanks for the stats and I agree totally with your analysis. Big Sam has some work to do.

 

[chasmac]

Seeing as we are looking at Stats. Has anyone assessed these involvements for dominance? If we are looking for impact then we need some dominance (like Vermulen) in the involvements.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I rewatched the first 30 minutes of last night. I was specifically watching Fardy, Simmons and Carter's involvements. Not were particularly dominate, though none were passive, generally they made a meter or two past the tackler.

 

[chasmac]

I think Simmons at the moment epitomises the difference between 'workrate' and 'impact'.

Yes his stats are decent enough, but has he made any impact on the game? Has he knocked anyone back in the tackle, blown a defender off the ball, made a nice offload to set up an attacking play?

At his best he is capable of all that, but I just haven't seen it in the last two weeks.

Skelton may not have the work rate Simmons does but he can make a real impact on the game.

There is nothing wrong with workrate, and chalking up good stats. I've lauded Palu for years for that very ability. But I think Simmons just needs a couple of bright spark moments each game and he'll be back in the good books, at the moment it's all pretty flat.
.

Back on page 17 of this thread (don't ask why) I uncovered this gem from barbarian.
This was posted pre the Springbok test.
While I don't agree 100% about Skelton (gives away too much in the set piece) I think the setiment for Simmons is spot on.

 

[Ash]

In that game, Simmons offloaded to Carter to set up a good attacking raid, and he had a text tackle around the thighs that drove the runner back and allowed Hooper to force a penalty for holding on. He also ran Pienaar down, as he has a few times.

Yes, Simmons had some impact around the ground. If you were going on work around the park, Simmons' game was passable against the Boks. His issue was the number of penalties and lineout. Which definitely made Simmons' game as not passable overall.