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Australia v South Africa - Perth - 6 September 2014

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KOB1987

John Eales (66)
I thought about putting this in another thread, but I figured it's relevant for this as our strategy and mindset towards RWC 2015 needs to start in this game next weekend and then be built upon thereafter.

This is primarily prompted by the post by @FrankLind over on p84 of the post game thread, where he claimed that the gap between the ABs and Wallabies has widened in the last 12 months and is at risk of widening further, as the ABs will continue to improve and develop and that our only players who can offer the same are Foley & Hooper.

Props - this time last year we were calling for nationwide scrum schools etc after the Suncorp debacle v the Springboks. Whilst not claiming perfection in this area, we have made massive progress and Slipper & Kepu collectively have been as good as any front row going around. Link has to admit his mistake now though and bring Robbo back in for Cowan. More improvement coming.

Hooker - the fact that we are now down to our 4th & 6th choices (assuming Latu was 5th) and still performing OK highlights our depth in this position. No more injuries though please.

Locks - this is easily our biggest area of concern. We need Horwill's experience and it was a mistake to drop Jones from the 32. His counterpart Neville also comes to mind as having all the attributes of a good lock (although I admit to not knowing his game well). Point is we need a couple of big tough buggers who don't give a shit and put their body on the line for the whole time they are out there. Skelton offers potential obviously but he comes across as a bit greeen, as does Carter. Hence Horwill for now.

Back row - I don't think we can beat the AB's here, but I don't think we have to, as long as we are effective. Hooper at 7, and then there are Fardy, Higginbotham and McCalman all providing depth in the 6. I think we need to consider making Palu a bench impact player, but none of those 6's I don't think fit the mould of a World Cup winning 8. So we need to blood someone else.

Halves - this has been the other area of concern highlighted, but it's not because we don't have the cattle, we just had the wrong ones out there. At 9 we have Phipps, White, Burgess and potentially Genia, and at 10 we have Foley, To'omua, Lealifano, throw Beale in and Cooper to return. It's just a matter of finding the right combo, looks set to be Phipps & Foley tried next. Add to that the U20's coming through as inside backs - McIntyre, Horwitz & Stewart. (On Beale I don't think Link is wrong in thinking he is a 10 - he just isn't an international 10, marginal at Super rugby there too, but play him there in the NRC every day of the week).

Centres - due to our obsession with having 2 playmakers (which I don't necessarily agree with), all bar the one above which gets picked at 10 become the options for 12. What we are lacking is a player like Horan or Nonu who was/is a top class 12 and that's it..To'omua is probably the closest thing to it, and if I were to nominate a left field candidate it would be Kerevi and I think he should be the one picked for McCabe's spot in the 32. At 13, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is only just behind if not on par with C Smith, and Kuridrani is there as well..if Kerevi isn't seen as a 12 option, then he should at least be blooded now for the 13 jersey where the Reds have been playing him.

Back three - here is one area where we can potentially outperform NZ..it didn't happen in the last 2 games because we didn't have proper wingers, but a back 3 of Folau, Speight and Cummins (if he comes back) or JOC (James O'Connor) is better than the AB's. There's also AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) if required there, Horne & Beale as cover, and Tomane & Betham as new kids on the block. Don't tell me there's no improvement/development coming in this area.

That's my piece..
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
KOB I think To'omua is our best option at inside centre. I think this because he has all the attributes needed for an inside centre.

He's essentially the reverse Nonu. Whilst Nonu is a ball crashing who can do a little play making, To'omua is a play maker who can do a little ball crashing. Most importantly while stronger in one aspect, he has a well rounded game. In addition he is a great defender, important for the guy that leads the defensive line up.

Anybody else played there, whilst potential stronger in some aspects, would be considerably weaker in others.
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
I don't disagree TWAS, what we are missing though is someone who can just slot in there if he can't play..we need a solid plan B for all positions.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The biggest thing that has to improve is the play at halfback. It is essentially what dictates how our backline can fare.

If you look at all our halfbacks and compare the times they were playing well against times they weren't, the backlines outside them look like chalk and cheese.

At the start of the year it took a while for Phipps to get going for the Tahs. The backline was scoring some tries but they were mostly from broken play and bits of individual brilliance. Compare that to late in the season when his form was brilliant and the Tahs backline was dangerous off first phase and making line breaks and metres with ease.

Will Genia had a poor Super Rugby season and for the most part the Reds backline was just shovelling the ball sideways. There was no go forward because Cooper was getting average ball well behind the gain line and they weren't threatening defences. Go back to 2011 when he was arguably in the best form of his career and the Reds backline was incredible and the Wallabies backline with McCabe, Fainga'a etc. were looking quite dangerous.

Nic White was great in 2013 and at the start of this year and their backs were running riot when on attack. McCabe was busting through gaps all over the place and invariably when it got out wide, there was lots of space for Speight, Coleman and Tomane with defenders backpedalling and indecisive. Compare that to the last two games for the Wallabies and his service has been slow and inaccurate and our first receiver (whether it is Beale or To'omua or a forward) have been receiving the ball standing still and then haven't been able to get any forward momentum. That's left us getting stuck behind the advantage line or just shovelling the ball across the backline with the defence smothering us.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Excellent point. Number one priority should be a halfback who can get the ball out quickly and hit the target. Everything else (kicking, running, defense) should be secondary.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Props - this time last year we were calling for nationwide scrum schools etc after the Suncorp debacle v the Springboks. Whilst not claiming perfection in this area, we have made massive progress and Slipper & Kepu collectively have been as good as any front row going around. Link has to admit his mistake now though and bring Robbo back in for Cowan. More improvement coming.

Agree their a massive improvement at the scrum. But we still lack props with a bit of mongrel. Bruising players like the Franks brothers. Kepu is okay but far from intimidating. Slipper is very good - but I think he does play a bit looser then a normal prop. I'd like to see our props playing tighter - think about it all our decent props play lose Sio, Alexander. Although I don't think we can dominate I think we can play to parity at least with our current stocks.

Doesn't Robbo play the same side as Slipper? Slipper usually plays 80mins so It's not a very costly mistake by McKenzie.

Hooker - the fact that we are now down to our 4th & 6th choices (assuming Latu was 5th) and still performing OK highlights our depth in this position. No more injuries though please.
.

OK isn't good enough. After TPN/Moore their is a big gap till the next guy. TPN/Moore are similar age and aren't getting any younger, I see this as a cause of concern in the next 3-4 years.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
The biggest thing that has to improve is the play at halfback. It is essentially what dictates how our backline can fare.

If you look at all our halfbacks and compare the times they were playing well against times they weren't, the backlines outside them look like chalk and cheese.

At the start of the year it took a while for Phipps to get going for the Tahs. The backline was scoring some tries but they were mostly from broken play and bits of individual brilliance. Compare that to late in the season when his form was brilliant and the Tahs backline was dangerous off first phase and making line breaks and metres with ease.

Will Genia had a poor Super Rugby season and for the most part the Reds backline was just shovelling the ball sideways. There was no go forward because Cooper was getting average ball well behind the gain line and they weren't threatening defences. Go back to 2011 when he was arguably in the best form of his career and the Reds backline was incredible and the Wallabies backline with McCabe, Fainga'a etc. were looking quite dangerous.

Nic White was great in 2013 and at the start of this year and their backs were running riot when on attack. McCabe was busting through gaps all over the place and invariably when it got out wide, there was lots of space for Speight, Coleman and Tomane with defenders backpedalling and indecisive. Compare that to the last two games for the Wallabies and his service has been slow and inaccurate and our first receiver (whether it is Beale or To'omua or a forward) have been receiving the ball standing still and then haven't been able to get any forward momentum. That's left us getting stuck behind the advantage line or just shovelling the ball across the backline with the defence smothering us.


Disagree, The biggest thing we need to improve is Forwards providing go-forward and clean-ball. Breakdown accuracy, aggression, cleaning-out on BOTH defense and attack.

The best half-back in the world is going to have a hard time if his forwards are going backwards all game.

Look at your examples - Nic White great in 2013 - behind a good forward pack. Phipps for the Tahs - probably the best forward pack of the comp always providing go-forward. Genia - was poor behind a poor pack who got out-muscled consistently.

Fix the forwards first then worry about the backs.
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
Yes, and there a few examples from the weekend where we may have made the gain line and had a bit of go forward, but still plenty where we would have been bashed around the park anyway.

I recorded the replay at midnight last night..never before have I had the desire to re-watch a game like that but I am going to purely for the purpose of looking for mistakes like those.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Centres - due to our obsession with having 2 playmakers (which I don't necessarily agree with), all bar the one above which gets picked at 10 become the options for 12. What we are lacking is a player like Horan or Nonu who was/is a top class 12 and that's it..To'omua is probably the closest thing to it, and if I were to nominate a left field candidate it would be Kerevi and I think he should be the one picked for McCabe's spot in the 32. At 13, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is only just behind if not on par with C Smith, and Kuridrani is there as well..if Kerevi isn't seen as a 12 option, then he should at least be blooded now for the 13 jersey where the Reds have been playing him.


Don't forget Kyle Godwin. He seems to be the 12 of the future for the wallabies.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Disagree, The biggest thing we need to improve is Forwards providing go-forward and clean-ball. Breakdown accuracy, aggression, cleaning-out on BOTH defense and attack.

The best half-back in the world is going to have a hard time if his forwards are going backwards all game.

Look at your examples - Nic White great in 2013 - behind a good forward pack. Phipps for the Tahs - probably the best forward pack of the comp always providing go-forward. Genia - was poor behind a poor pack who got out-muscled consistently.

Fix the forwards first then worry about the backs.

OK. Let's leave White and Beale at 9 and 10. Clearly there are no issues there until we get our forwards right. o_O

I should have said the biggest issue in our backline. Obviously our forwards need to muscle up and compete.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Don't forget Kyle Godwin. He seems to be the 12 of the future for the wallabies.


Well let's talk about him in the future though.

I'm sick of fucking sandgropers taking Link's line out him not being considered due to injury as if he would be the starting 12 if fit.

The bloke had a great 2013. He then had a pretty fucking average 2014. Yes he defended well but that's it and if that's all that was required we wouldn't have moved on from Pat McCabe and Anthony Fainga'a.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
OK. Let's leave White and Beale at 9 and 10. Clearly there are no issues there until we get our forwards right. o_O

I should have said the biggest issue in our backline. Obviously our forwards need to muscle up and compete.


What happened to all your Beale love from last week? hate to say I told you so... ;)

Agree. Biggest problem with our back-line.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Well let's talk about him in the future though.

I'm sick of fucking sandgropers taking Link's line out him not being considered due to injury as if he would be the starting 12 if fit.

The bloke had a great 2013. He then had a pretty fucking average 2014. Yes he defended well but that's it and if that's all that was required we wouldn't have moved on from Pat McCabe and Anthony Fainga'a.


Agree. My point was however he is the ONLY 12 prospect we have. Other players are Lilo, Beale - and generally already know what we get from them. Tapuai maybe.

Alternatively we got Inman, maybe Horne. That's if we change our current structures to suit their style.

If To'omua gets injured we got a problem if we want to continue our structures. I see Godwin our only option as I don't rate Lilo as a 12 and Beale is a liability.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Agree. My point was however he is the ONLY 12 prospect we have. Other players are Lilo, Beale - and generally already know what we get from them. Tapuai maybe.

Alternatively we got Inman, maybe Horne. That's if we change our current structures to suit their style.

If To'omua gets injured we got a problem if we want to continue our structures. I see Godwin our only option as I don't rate Lilo as a 12 and Beale is a liability.


Lilo has been average in 2014 but Godwin has been no better. He merely made a lot of tackles because a lot of traffic came his way. I'd be moving Horne to 12 who is a test capped centre and played very well there in 2013 over bringing Godwin in based on what we've seen so far.
 
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