Australia v Scotland, 3:00pm 17 June Sydney Football Stadium

[wamberal]

A bit touchy, eh? Can we stick to the facts, M8? The facts are that one of the recurring motifs here is that Cheika picks players just because they are Tahs.

That is a fact. Nothing to laugh about, frankly.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Yeah - unfortunately it is a fact, and fans have the right to complain about it.

 

[barbarian]

Scrum held up with Robertson and he had a lot of ruck involvements, according to the stats posted earlier. Par score, wouldn't say a waste of space. See what Smith has, I doubt it will be magnitudes more, but he's also pretty solid.
I think there were far worse factors in the loss than set piece and ruck work, but of course the latter could always be more dynamic.

You can't win though Cyclo.

Those who were on here during our dark days of scrummaging will recall multiple posts from people along the lines of: 'We should pick our props solely on set piece prowess, and everything else is gravy!'.

And now we have a scrum as solid as I've seen it (for the best part of 18 months, no less) and now our props are being harrangued for lack of involvement around the field.

I'd actually argue the props were the only ones who did their job on Saturday.
.

 

[KOB1987]

You forgot the NSW Country RU, who are apparently indispensable.

QH I don't really want to revisit this issue, we had a good discussion about it before and I think I understand your perspective and what you were trying to say a bit better now.

But my perspective (from a fairly close position) is that if the running of the NSW Country comps was left to people in the city then it would be complete clusterfuck, or possibly just completely overlooked. The way it is structured now with a volunteer from each zone forming the NSWCRU board is completely harmless and costless and irrelevant to the over-administration at other levels and it means the zones are all singing from the same songsheet. The NSWCRU performs a specific function with absolutely no duplication elsewhere in the system.

And just for the record http://crlnsw.com.au/

 

[Sabuulia]

I have literally signed up to have my say on this.

1. I am not a Quade Cooper fan, and never have been, but he came on and played with intent and an actual plan.

2. Hooper is not a world class No.7. He is definitely a world class player, but not at 7. In the current super rugby season, both Colby Fainga'a and Chris Alcock have him beaten in every category except for run metres - and look at last year where arguably the best 7 in the world had to play at 8 in Pocock.

3. Ned Hanigan is not a Test level player yet. He may become one, but why when the mantra is to pick the strongest team is he the starter.

4. That starting forward pack had exactly zero mongrel in it - even Higgenbotham is subdued.

5. Israel Folau is a fantastic winger - but a test level fullback he is not. He can't kick and therefore stifles our options.

6. Genia should have been hooked after 30 minutes - he was having a poor night and it didn't get any better.

7. TPN can't lock down a starting position in his super rugby side this year, but is our best hooker??

8. On that note, Moore is not at test level anymore either - neither of them is a reliable lineout thrower, its a lottery every time.

9. Our props were reasonable, and there is a lot to like there - we just need to up their workrate.

10. Coleman is great - Sam Carter, while the Brumbies captain, is a grafter, not a current test player. Hopefully he grows into it. Rory Arnold and others bring so much more aggression to the run, however with limited lineout options you end up with having to take a lineout specialist.

11. We need to stop giving away stupid professional fouls, and then acting like it could have happened to anyone. Foley's shoulder charge was a ridiculous decision at a club level, let alone at International level.

12. Hunt is a serviceable 12, but we have exactly 0 creativity in the backline.

13. Kuridrani seemed quiet, but its hard to do much without any ball. When Quade came on I thought with the extra ball he seemed to start to really come into the game.

14. Fardy is the best 6 in Australia, but is apparently not in the first XV??

15. RHP needs to be blooded.

My short to medium term solution:

1. We have to say enough is enough. "Brain Explosions" should just be thanks for coming, enjoy the pine because you are staying there after your ten mins are up. While Genia was charged down, he wouldn't have been in that position but for Foley. We need to have a good hard look at ourselves ala New Zealand in 2007. We need to stop accepting behaviour.

2. Hear me out on this one, because its going to be controversial boys and girls. Hooper needs to move to 12. He has a fantastic run game, is a great defender and has good hands. He however does not do particularly well at the breakdown.

3. Hooper is not a national captain. His body language and style are not what we need. That's not saying that they are wrong, just that it is not the sort of captaincy we need to rebuild. We need someone who leads through all of his actions, words and attitude. If Pocock was here it should be him, but otherwise it is a hard one - there isn't a natural leader out there.

4. Beale needs to slot in to 12 or 15.

5. Folau needs to move to a wing.

6. We need to have a national plan - not just 5 Super Rugby clubs who do their own thing and then a National coach who plays a different way. You see this in NZ and to an extent in SA - we don't appear to do it.

On a separate note, it is sad to look at the number of players who have left Aust rugby over this in the last few years -

Nick White had a bad error against NZ and was removed from the Wallabies program and went overseas.

Matt To'omua went overseas with his wife, but is a much better option at 12 than what we have currently.

Scott Fardy is our best 6 by a long shot and is going overseas.

Matt Giteua had a falling out and went overseas.

The only way up is to accept that we are a 6 - 10 in the world side, not a 1 - 5 and work on what is keeping us there, not imagine that we will push the All Blacks. It is a fantasy at the moment - based on what I saw at the under 20's world cup the NZ Under 20's would beat us handily.

Sorry for the long rant - just needed to get it off my chest. Equally this is not me attacking anyone personally - a number of the guys I have named are great people, and I have met Michael Hooper personally in his days at the Brumbies.

Hopefully this is taken the right way - in the spirit of constructive criticism not as an all time crack at people.

 

[Quick Hands]

Bugger me, Dave, our squad is not fit enough now. They need more gym work, not less.


As for skills, I am still waiting to see some magic from Mick Byrne.

I suspect that they are very fit young men, whether it's the right type of fitness for the task at hand is another question entirely.

 

[wamberal]

I suspect that they are very fit young men, whether it's the right type of fitness for the task at hand is another question entirely.

Fitness for task at hand is the only criterion that matters, though, surely? What on earth is the value of being fit under any other measure?

 

[Quick Hands]

Fitness for task at hand is the only criterion that matters, though, surely? What on earth is the value of being fit under any other measure?

Exactly my point.

 

[wamberal]

Exactly my point.

So we are in furious agreement!!!!

 

[Quick Hands]

So we are in furious agreement!!!!

We actually agree about most things - other than the administration.

 

[upthereds#!]

For all the ups and downs and pros and cos yadda yadda, I am realllllllly getting tired of Cheikas performance comments always being related to effort and mentality. It's all about, be more physical, be more urgent, try harder, more effort, more intent - It's all about the mind set of the players EVERY time. Sure it has to be sometimes, but for fucks sake...it can't be the problem EVERY time. Mick B came in and straight away said - Australian rugby isn't skilled enough - Cheika says we gotta try harder. Kafe points out regular tactical flaws - Cheika says nah just gotta try harder for longer.

Are we a bit light in contact because we have an undersized, under experienced LHP, in conjunction with a lightweight lock and a debutant lightweight flanker? No...it's because they aren't being physical enough.

Are they struggling to be dominate in the collisions because the first time we had a physical team was when Timani, Coleman and Arnold all started, but not anymore because we've gone back to lightweight workrate skewed too far over dominance and thereore we can't get over the advantage line and can't keep the opposition behind theirs?...no...it's because they havn't got ENOUGH work rate

It's not because our best halfback hasn't been playing here therefore the combinations are off, and that our Attack Coach was surprised 2 days before a game when Cheika randomly decided to put a player that HE had purely training at 15, run on at 12. It's because there isn't enough urgency.

It's not because a test cap was given to the most undeserving player in super rugby (Nabuli) who at BEST is 7th or 8th wing. a player who admitted he only has just started to figure out where he needs to run and stand in rugby, it's because we lacked urgency.

It's not that the Defence Coach has employed the same patterns in the Wallabies that he has failed with at the Tahs so they are the WORST defensive nsw team in super history, flaws which have been time and time again pointed out by the commentary team...no...they just have to try harder.

It's not because our attack revolves around 1 player and a rolling maul, the signature move of a team our Backs Coach is purely responsible for...it's because of a lack of urgency.

It's not because we have a clear inbalance in our backrow, with the mongrel title going to a 20 yr old beanstalk who for all his best intentions and workrate, is having very little physical influence on the game, or that our enforcer is actually a lineout specialist and needs a bash brother, or that our no.8 and no.7 THRIVE in open games and scoring tries, and the lack of a Muscle man or breakdown man is glaringly obvious...No...it's because there isn't enough workrate....or physical dominance...even though they rarely emerge at top levels within the same body.

Nothing to do with coaching, tactics or strategy, it's purely because the players aren't trying hard enough for long enough, therefore the flawless coaching, tactics strategy won't work.

 

[RedsHappy]

For all the ups and downs and pros and cos yadda yadda, I am realllllllly getting tired of Cheikas performance comments always being related to effort and mentality. It's all about, be more physical, be more urgent, try harder, more effort, more intent - It's all about the mind set of the players EVERY time. Sure it has to be sometimes, but for fucks sake.it can't be the problem EVERY time. Mick B came in and straight away said - Australian rugby isn't skilled enough - Cheika says we gotta try harder. Kafe points out regular tactical flaws - Cheika says nah just gotta try harder for longer.

Are we a bit light in contact because we have an undersized, under experienced LHP, in conjunction with a lightweight lock and a debutant lightweight flanker? No.it's because they aren't being physical enough.

Are they struggling to be dominate in the collisions because the first time we had a physical team was when Timani, Coleman and Arnold all started, but not anymore because we've gone back to lightweight workrate skewed too far over dominance and thereore we can't get over the advantage line and can't keep the opposition behind theirs?.no.it's because they havn't got ENOUGH work rate

It's not because our best halfback hasn't been playing here therefore the combinations are off, and that our Attack Coach was surprised 2 days before a game when Cheika randomly decided to put a player that HE had purely training at 15, run on at 12. It's because there isn't enough urgency.

It's not because a test cap was given to the most undeserving player in super rugby (Nabuli) who at BEST is 7th or 8th wing. a player who admitted he only has just started to figure out where he needs to run and stand in rugby, it's because we lacked urgency.

It's not that the Defence Coach has employed the same patterns in the Wallabies that he has failed with at the Tahs so they are the WORST defensive nsw team in super history, flaws which have been time and time again pointed out by the commentary team.no.they just have to try harder.

It's not because our attack revolves around 1 player and a rolling maul, the signature move of a team our Backs Coach is purely responsible for.it's because of a lack of urgency.

It's not because we have a clear inbalance in our backrow, with the mongrel title going to a 20 yr old beanstalk who for all his best intentions and workrate, is having very little physical influence on the game, or that our enforcer is actually a lineout specialist and needs a bash brother, or that our no.8 and no.7 THRIVE in open games and scoring tries, and the lack of a Muscle man or breakdown man is glaringly obvious.No.it's because there isn't enough workrate..or physical dominance.even though they rarely emerge at top levels within the same body.

Nothing to do with coaching, tactics or strategy, it's purely because the players aren't trying hard enough for long enough, therefore the flawless coaching, tactics strategy won't work.

Astute post utr#! You summed up a worrying, and now quite repetitive, aspect of Cheika's 'coaching mindset' and general temperament very well.

I've said numerous times here that I consider he's made major errors of commission and omission with his Wallaby coaching group. And this group seems under no pressure of review or performance assessment from any quarter, indeed it's now rumoured that Grey will likely soon become a full-time Wallaby Assistant Coach a la Larkham.

Sadly, the signs are accumulating that Cheika could be out of his depth at this Test level of coaching and more particularly in relation to the calibre of the Test HCs and ACs he's competing against team-wise.

His track-record, now in his third full year of Wallaby coaching, is looking decidedly mediocre.

Are the June 2017 Wallabies looking and playing markedly better than the team that nearly beat the ABs in Brisbane in October 2014?

 

[The torpedo]

Are the June 2017 Wallabies looking and playing markedly better than the team that nearly beat the ABs in Brisbane in October 2014?

the team that nearly beat the ABs in Brisbane in October 2014?

ABs in Brisbane in October 2014?

 

[fatprop]

 

[amirite]

For all the ups and downs and pros and cos yadda yadda, I am realllllllly getting tired of Cheikas performance comments always being related to effort and mentality. It's all about, be more physical, be more urgent, try harder, more effort, more intent - It's all about the mind set of the players EVERY time. Sure it has to be sometimes, but for fucks sake.it can't be the problem EVERY time. Mick B came in and straight away said - Australian rugby isn't skilled enough - Cheika says we gotta try harder. Kafe points out regular tactical flaws - Cheika says nah just gotta try harder for longer.

Are we a bit light in contact because we have an undersized, under experienced LHP, in conjunction with a lightweight lock and a debutant lightweight flanker? No.it's because they aren't being physical enough.

Are they struggling to be dominate in the collisions because the first time we had a physical team was when Timani, Coleman and Arnold all started, but not anymore because we've gone back to lightweight workrate skewed too far over dominance and thereore we can't get over the advantage line and can't keep the opposition behind theirs?.no.it's because they havn't got ENOUGH work rate

It's not because our best halfback hasn't been playing here therefore the combinations are off, and that our Attack Coach was surprised 2 days before a game when Cheika randomly decided to put a player that HE had purely training at 15, run on at 12. It's because there isn't enough urgency.

It's not because a test cap was given to the most undeserving player in super rugby (Nabuli) who at BEST is 7th or 8th wing. a player who admitted he only has just started to figure out where he needs to run and stand in rugby, it's because we lacked urgency.

It's not that the Defence Coach has employed the same patterns in the Wallabies that he has failed with at the Tahs so they are the WORST defensive nsw team in super history, flaws which have been time and time again pointed out by the commentary team.no.they just have to try harder.

It's not because our attack revolves around 1 player and a rolling maul, the signature move of a team our Backs Coach is purely responsible for.it's because of a lack of urgency.

It's not because we have a clear inbalance in our backrow, with the mongrel title going to a 20 yr old beanstalk who for all his best intentions and workrate, is having very little physical influence on the game, or that our enforcer is actually a lineout specialist and needs a bash brother, or that our no.8 and no.7 THRIVE in open games and scoring tries, and the lack of a Muscle man or breakdown man is glaringly obvious.No.it's because there isn't enough workrate..or physical dominance.even though they rarely emerge at top levels within the same body.

Nothing to do with coaching, tactics or strategy, it's purely because the players aren't trying hard enough for long enough, therefore the flawless coaching, tactics strategy won't work.

I understand your points made, but I think the points a coach makes in the review session on Monday post-analysis would be very different to the points freshly post-match in a press conference.

There's a different audience (fans V athletes/staff) and a different amount of information available (making sense of something you've just watched live V something you've watched a number of times and have data for).

Even the stuff a coach is saying publicly on a Monday would differ from what he says behind closed doors. Fans don't want to hear sound bites about how the forwards weren't screening right on exits and stuff like that, they just want a bunch of rah-rah passion and hopefully some results come Saturday.

In summary, nobody cares how the sausage is made as long as it tastes good.

 

[wamberal]

Words are cheap. Let's see a good team selected, and let us see them play with structure in both attack and defense. Let us see a coherent game plan which, if it is not producing fruit, is changed in a planned, constructive, way.


Above all let us never forget that at this level of the game, effort is a given. Brains, skills, and above all, tactics, that is what produces wins.


And while you're at it, do something about Popgun Foley's kicking quickly, please. Either fix it, or fix him.

 

[I like to watch]

In summary, nobody cares how the sausage is made as long as it tastes good.

Don't agree with this but at all.
Heaps of the threads on this site,are chock full of observations about tactics etc.

I've been to plenty of pre match functions, and undoubtedly the bits that have the rooms undivided attention, is when a member of the coaching panel gives a brief overview of the day's game plan, with a few video segments to illustrate it.

Many prefer to debate about the ingredients of the sausage to consuming it.

 

[RedsHappy]

Words are cheap. Let's see a good team selected, and let us see them play with structure in both attack and defense. Let us see a coherent game plan which, if it is not producing fruit, is changed in a planned, constructive, way.


Above all let us never forget that at this level of the game, effort is a given. Brains, skills, and above all, tactics, that is what produces wins.


And while you're at it, do something about Popgun Foley's kicking quickly, please. Either fix it, or fix him.

To your very good point Wamberal - do we see that Cheika is fixing anything very much?

One would assume that 4 straight losses v England incl no less than 3 in a row on home soil would be enough for most Test HCs to want to fix - and urgently and fundamentally so - many things about his team.

 

[RedsHappy]

Don't agree with this but at all.
Heaps of the threads on this site,are chock full of observations about tactics etc.

I've been to plenty of pre match functions, and undoubtedly the bits that have the rooms undivided attention, is when a member of the coaching panel gives a brief overview of the day's game plan, with a few video segments to illustrate it.

Many prefer to debate about the ingredients of the sausage to consuming it.

Presently ILTW, Cheika's Test sausages are being orally ejected upon tasting.

 

[Braveheart81]

When you boil it all down, we were not a good enough team to overcome gifting Scotland two tries to be able to win the game. In spite of gifting two tries, we were close and had numerous golden opportunities to win and couldn't execute at those crucial times.

We had plenty of possession, territory, controlled our own scrum and lineout (despite making a couple of crucial lineout mistakes when on attack) and controlled our breakdown. Our discipline was generally good.

Our option taking and execution at key times was poor. We make too many critical errors and panic at both ends of the field at pivotal moments in the game.