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Aussie 7s - a new journey.

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WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
The ARU should be actively promoting 7s in the schools systems nationally. They already have the programmes to deliver the format with TryRugby and EdRugby. With AOC funding they will have the financial resources to expand these programmes. I'm a fan of 7s as a flagship development tool and advocate it being sold as a summer sporting option. Out of season with our major competitors would give us a significant avdantage especially in new 'virgin' territories. The temptation for the ARU could be to pour the funding it recieves from the AOC into the pro program but investing in the expansion of the game would pay far greater dividends.
 

Nusadan

Chilla Wilson (44)
There is a huge pool of touch footy players in Oz to draw from that would not venture out to the more and traditionally physical side of the sport but would be very amenable to Sevens rugby.

The normal off season is ideal for sevens with daylight saving seeing games played in the twilight after work.

Wagga Wagga in NSW, for example, has a huge touch footy culture and most games are played in the grounds complex right next to the premier rugby grounds which lies empty all summer which can be easily utilised for sevens should the club/organisation be given funding from IOC to hold competitions.
 
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TOCC

Guest
7s and XVs are different games. Some skills and players transfer, others don't - both ways.

Stannard's an outstanding 7s player, and at 27 has only just got a S15 contract, as a backup player. If he could get paid decently to play 7s for Australia, he would. I know because he told me in his interview!

You're right that developing 15s stars won't want to stay in 7s, and that's fine. But when you spot the Stannards, Gollings (highest 7s scorer ever, by a factor of 2) and Serevis, why let them go? England didn't and they've built a whole 7s dynasty around him.

Yes i understand lack of synergy between some 7's and 15's skillsets, and ok there are some players like Stannard who are willing to take a 7's career over a 15's, Gollings is a little bit of a difference case though.

My point is, that until 7's starts to actually earn money for the governing unions, we cant expect to have fully professional 7's players here in Australia. It would be like suggesting we should start paying the Wallaroos side even thuough there sponsorship deals barely cover the cost of the playing kit.

IRB doesn indeed subsidise the 7's tournament, and sponsorship money is starting to flow in with the recent Visa? sponsorship deal of the IRB 7's tournament. However at the moment, these are still only enough to cover logistical and prize money exspenses.

Those on here suggesting that the AOC funding is flowing through are in fact incorrect, AOC funding works on a cyclic nature(4 years unsurprisingly). Since rugby 7's isnt been included into the Olympics until Rio, it wont receive funding until the 2012/2013 financial year.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
My point is, that until 7's starts to actually earn money for the governing unions, we cant expect to have fully professional 7's players here in Australia.

Why? I'm suggesting we pay 3 players low-mid S15 level contracts. They're already paying the whole squad $20k or so, so the ARU have obviously decided the value of this as a development route is there. The poms, saffas and kiwis have all gone further than that.
 
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TOCC

Guest
Why? I'm suggesting we pay 3 players low-mid S15 level contracts. They're already paying the whole squad $20k or so, so the ARU have obviously decided the value of this as a development route is there. The poms, saffas and kiwis have all gone further than that.

Ah because the ARU are financially strapped as it is...

They will still have to pay the remaining members of the squad regardless, 7's players still fall under the RUPA agreement. Your suggesting a extra $300k is thrown on top of the 7's budget..

The poms, saffas and kiwis survive in different economic environments, apples and oranges......
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
You're right, the Kiwis have less money than the ARU, and they prop up the ITM cup

We're obviously not going to agree on this one, but I'd doubt it'd be as much as $300k to top up 3 Stannard-like players - even if it were it would surely be a fraction compared to what they now spend jetting the 7s circus around the globe. If you've sunk that cost, you might as well make it successful, rather than make up the numbers.
 
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TOCC

Guest
You're right, the Kiwis have less money than the ARU, and they prop up the ITM cup

We're obviously not going to agree on this one, but I'd doubt it'd be as much as $300k to top up 3 Stannard-like players - even if it were it would surely be a fraction compared to what they now spend jetting the 7s circus around the globe. If you've sunk that cost, you might as well make it successful, rather than make up the numbers.

You said low/mid level S15 contract, by all reports you are lucky to find a S15 player earning leas then $100k....that was the wage explosion they spoke of following the western force introduction, hence why overall positions were reduced...You seem to be insinuating that by signing 3 players on a contract this will somehow reduce the overall 7's logistical fees......I'm confused by this logic?

Comparing the ARU and NZRU is apples and oranges, and they in fact have more money then the ARU, by cash reserves and revenue
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
It's pretty simple - they're sinking a fortune on on the logistics already. You spend that money on guys who lose, or for marginal extra spend, guys who win.

You'll have to show me those NZRFU numbers, they've been running serious deficits for a number of years now and look like taking a bath on the RWC. I thought I'd seen an article talking about them being nigh on bust?
 
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TOCC

Guest
It's pretty simple - they're sinking a fortune on on the logistics already. You spend that money on guys who lose, or for marginal extra spend, guys who win.

You'll have to show me those NZRFU numbers, they've been running serious deficits for a number of years now and look like taking a bath on the RWC. I thought I'd seen an article talking about them being nigh on bust?

Gagger, they still need to spend that 'small fortune' on logistics even with contracted 7players, the players won't be paying there for there own flights and accommodation.. The ARU will still need to pay the logistical costs of the 3 or 4 Sevens contracted players..Not to mention the rest of the squad, the ARU still need to pay there incidentals and there logistical expenses.

Any salaries paid to 7s players will be on top of existing costs... Ie, a larger budget will need to be granted towards the 7s program..

What part of that do you actually disagree with Gagger?

Also, we can save the NZRU discussion for another thread, it's irrellevant anyway.
 

observer

Tom Lawton (22)
I'm not sure 7's don't pay their way as you suggest TOCC. Big crowds at big stadiums (Wellington Feb '11 sold out in 4 minutes, 40,000 at Twickenham for the final day London Sevens). A multi-million dollar 5 year sponsorship by HSBC, the 6th biggest bank in the world. Add to that the TV rights with 34 broadcasters involved. This from the IRB;

For a fifth consecutive year a record global audience switched on to Sevens in 2010. Television broadcast coverage of the eight-tournament 2009/10 Sevens World Series reached 141 countries across six continents, with 34 broadcasters showing action from the most competitive Series to date, won by Samoa for the first time in the Series’ 11-year history. The Series also attracted record attendance figures with over 500,000 fans enjoying the unique event festival atmosphere.

I believe Gagger is right in that sevens players salaries are going to rise in the next few years. I have been told by someone in the ARU HPU that this is the case as Sevens profile increases around the world and authorities see the game as a good stepping stone to 15's.
 
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TOCC

Guest
Observer don't get me wrong, I undoubtedly expect the salaries of 7's players to rise at some point in the future, I was never arguing this, my point is that the rise in 7's salaries needs to be proportionately in line with revenue increase... From a ARU perspective we can't afford to be paying $70-100k contracts for players who purely play the 7'a tournament, at least not until revenue from 7's is significant enough to meet the costs, which I don't expect will be the case for another 2-3 years..
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Gagger, they still need to spend that 'small fortune' on logistics even with contracted 7players, the players won't be paying there for there own flights and accommodation.. The ARU will still need to pay the logistical costs of the 3 or 4 Sevens contracted players..Not to mention the rest of the squad, the ARU still need to pay there incidentals and there logistical expenses.

Any salaries paid to 7s players will be on top of existing costs... Ie, a larger budget will need to be granted towards the 7s program...

Exactly - that's my bloody point! This programme must be costing a fortune anyway - flying a squad of players plus coaches around the world for 9 months of the year. If you're participating in 7s at all, IT'S A SUNK COST

And the ARU paid it for all these years that we were shit-house and it was a semi-effectual pathway

For a small amount of cash relative to the outlay you describe above (which must be million+ A$) you have a winning programme that is far more desirable as a pathway and valuable in terms of generating more revenue, as we're actually winning.

It all boils down to whether you think investing a small amount of money into the 7s programme is worth it. The comparison to other unions is relevant, because they are faced with the same expenditure decisions, and are spending far more.

As a first step, I'd be happy with just signing James Stannard. How much can that cost??
 
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TOCC

Guest
Exactly - that's my bloody point! This programme must be costing a fortune anyway - flying a squad of players plus coaches around the world for 9 months of the year. If you're participating in 7s at all, IT'S A SUNK COST

And the ARU paid it for all these years that we were shit-house and it was a semi-effectual pathway

For a small amount of cash relative to the outlay you describe above (which must be million+ A$) you have a winning programme that is far more desirable as a pathway and valuable in terms of generating more revenue, as we're actually winning.

It all boils down to whether you think investing a small amount of money into the 7s programme is worth it. The comparison to other unions is relevant, because they are faced with the same expenditure decisions, and are spending far more.

As a first step, I'd be happy with just signing James Stannard. How much can that cost??

I think you will find the cost is signifcantly lower then $1million, if the figure were more then $300 - $400k i would be highly surprised, as i stated earlier, the IRB subsidises/funds the logistical part of the tournament(flights to/from and accomadation), the major exspenses for the ARU are the training camps within Australia, Michael O'Connors salary and the allowances paid to the players as dictated by the RUPA agreement.

Countries like Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and Kenya are all 100% funded, the pacific island countries have been funded this way for years, from around 2002 i believe.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Exactly - that's my bloody point! This programme must be costing a fortune anyway - flying a squad of players plus coaches around the world for 9 months of the year. If you're participating in 7s at all, IT'S A SUNK COST. And the ARU paid it for all these years that we were shit-house and it was a semi-effectual pathway. For a small amount of cash relative to the outlay you describe above (which must be million+ A$) you have a winning programme that is far more desirable as a pathway and valuable in terms of generating more revenue, as we're actually winning. It all boils down to whether you think investing a small amount of money into the 7s programme is worth it. The comparison to other unions is relevant, because they are faced with the same expenditure decisions, and are spending far more. As a first step, I'd be happy with just signing James Stannard. How much can that cost??

Gagger, you are 100% on the right track IMO, business-wise and code strategy wise in Oz. It's a big topic, but the code in Oz desperately needs forms of the game and games of the form that draw crowds, create interest and excitement and can be attractive to visual media. I actually think 7s could be developed in Oz very roughly a la the IPL in India, with 'franchised' 7s teams (perhaps set up by city, or region) in a fun, dynamic national 7s competition played say in September/October but skilfully sitting alongside the S14 and intermixed with the global 7s in some form. Just add to this concept a rugby SOO NSW v QLD (huge opportunity), and we may have the makings of (a) materially increased total code $ income (b) increased code profile as a dynamic and entertaining form of footy and (c) much enriched development pathways for a wider, less conventionally structured, group of talented rugby players (that elusive depth!). Then blend the Oz sporting love that will surely flow (if the bungling ARU handles it right) to rugby from the 2016 7s Olympics, and you begin to have some very positive new strategic components for reviving the game in Australia, and indeed a revival of code quality of thought and planning long overdue.
 
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TOCC

Guest
The 7's game is displaying good growth in the country presently, Ive said it elsewhere that the ARU and other state governing bodies will need to rationalize the 7's competition in Australia so there is a set annual program all running under the same banner, as opposed to the ad-hoc nature of things at the moment..

I think 2012 is the bet bet, the natural growth of the various competitions will be strong enough to sustain a national comp by then, assuming also that the AOC comes on board with there Olympic funding. It could be as simple as a 5 week tournament in the lead up to Christmas, this would allow S14 players to participate as part if there conditioning.

The economically sensible way to do things would be to have a overarching body established by the ARU, this body would then sanction the various events based on already established tournaments like Coffs Harbour, Gold Coast, Darwin and Noosa?. The sanctioned events would count towards the overall point tally and also receive a boost in prize money. A unified marketing formula and management would reduce costs and encourage growth.

It might start off pretty average, however it's a formula which spreads the financial burden and puts the emphasis back on the independent tournament hosts. Minimizes the risk to the ARU, it does however limit the ARU's control, which might see some reluctance.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Hey - great to see The Noosa International Sevens!

http://www.noosainternationalsevens.com.au/

TOCC/Gagger - I know this is Reds-spawned, but this is a kind of very rough example of the potential for innovative, maybe even locally franchised 7s teams/groups to emerge that could be quickly constructed upwards into a really exciting national 7s comp say every October..+ TOCC like your sensible suggestions above (or below) in post 35...
 

Nusadan

Chilla Wilson (44)
The Noosa Dolphins club is one of the best organised and harmonious clubs I have ever been involved in...for many, it is their life! The grounds are simply awesome...I am sure the event will grow in stature...and be a focal point for many southern clubs' end of season trips.
 

Budgie

Chris McKivat (8)
7's is made for Television. Lots of excitement for the "I want to see lots of tries" people with short attention spans.

Plenty of variety in a day at the 7's.
 
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Elvis

Guest
I've gotta say that I'm really looking forward to Noosa sevens. We have a growing rugby fraternity on the Sunshine Coast and a very successful 2010 from the Stingrays, with news that Kef has signed on to coach again in 2011. It can only be positive for the code, so let us promote rugby in all it's forms.. for rugbys' sake.
 
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