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Aus Babas v. Poms

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fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Seems to be a little over reaction here regarding scrums. Does no one remember how we went in the 3N last year? We pretty much smashed SA in the scrums and were even with NZ, except for the infamous Joubert/Baxter game. Yes, we don't have the depth, but that has always been the case for the Wallabies. We can still win the RWC next year if we have our best players on the park.

The scrums are less of an issue than the breakdown.

Now the question is who is going to play LHP this weekend?

Both Alexander and Baxter have the ability at THP to get parity with most and will let Robinson do his worst. No Robo and then .................. who?

Weekes may be able to get parity but also may not. The question is who would be the best scrummager left standing in the country and do we compromise the rest of the game to get a stable scrum.

Ma'afu and any in the current squad still standing does not give me great confidence.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Agree with the ruminations about Deans above. Something in his core ways is being exposed as deficient as time goes by, or at least deficient up to now. Let us prey that is all about to change.

Yes, there is stubbornness and eloquence from Deans. His language for the media is always so quietly inspiring, precise and 'thoughtful', impressive really. Then there is the enduring halo ever-present from all those Super wins. With really quite a poor overall win-loss record over 2 full seasons, it's remarkable how our rugby media keep Deans in such a protected and positive light.

But the darker truth is emerging I fear. He is not leading the Wallabies or Australia A into a skill-set or mindset that is good enough to consistently win against the best. The proof-point for this is most seen in the forwards, there is manifestly a coaching deficiency there in terms of breakdown intensity, technical capability and utter commitment to ball control. Yes the scrum has improved, but that was mostly Foley's work at core, and Deans IMO badly misjudged and let him go. But the core intensity and breakdown power of our forwards has not improved anything like enough, and that's overwhelmingly why we lose games against the best. Those who watched the S14 final, well, there was a lesson in where the real state-of-the-art is in forwards play and intrinsic capability.

The local media post the match v Fiji salivated over the 'wonderful depth in our exciting backs'. But the much less comforting reality lay in the poor relative performance of the forwards at scrum and breakdown against a far 'inferior' team whom we should have monstered all night upfront if our team had adequate real depth and capability. Talk of 'no Robinson or Palu' and excuses for rustiness is a soporific cop-out.

Last year's Tris also exposed what one might call the 'weak ego of the Wallabies team', namely rare fine efforts in Brisbane vs the Boks got converted in media-speak about 'belief' and 'new directions', and then trans-tasman all that was cruelly exposed as superficial and without real belief at all. Growden was on to this last year, and he was right. This is what the great coaches fix and generate, a high intensity of desire and self-belief rooted in talent and depth where it needs to be. Mourinho in round ball is a marvellous example of this, and White with the Boks was almost as good. I am also growing worried about the marriage of Kiwi reserve and Australian sport culture. I start to sense that Mitchell and Deans have similar problems with really communicating powerfully with Australian players - time will surely tell, in professional coaching there is nothing truer than 'you can run but you can't hide', over time.

I fear with heavy patriotic heart that the complete 2010 season will not be much up on 2009's mediocre effort unless the whole culture and technical capability of our top forwards is rapidly renovated. I desperately want to be wrong.

Btw, could there have been a more ridiculous selection for Australia A than Cummins? He single-handledly butchered two near-certain tries through schoolboy like pressure errors. Perhaps the likes of Rod Davies is still injured, but seriously, there were at least 3 wingers that deserved a go before the hapless Cummins. Again, these inexplicable oddities from Deans is partly what has started to worry me about him, fundamentally.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
His kicking has also improved. He made one memorable kick for touch running at inside centre.

Nick Cummins looks promising too- I've seen a few comments about poor handling, but I didn't see any from him (keeping in mind my feed dropped out for about 10-15 minutes in the first half). Aggressive in attack and defense, albeit a bit misguided- I thought he was at fault during the Banahan try, didn't slide to the wide man.
 
D

David

Guest
His kicking has also improved. He made one memorable kick for touch running at inside centre.

Nick Cummins looks promising too- I've seen a few comments about poor handling, but I didn't see any from him (keeping in mind my feed dropped out for about 10-15 minutes in the first half). Aggressive in attack and defense, albeit a bit misguided- I thought he was at fault during the Banahan try, didn't slide to the wide man.

To he honest, I was very unimpressed with Cummings, he dropped a couple balls and missed a tackle in the first half. As for the Banahan try, I agree, I think he had the time to force the English player to pass the ball then slide onto Banahan but I'm not going to roast him for that, just a lack I experience I suppose.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Good post RH and belated welcome to the forum. But I disagree with this bit.

I fear with heavy patriotic heart that the complete 2010 season will not be much up on 2009's mediocre effort unless the whole culture and technical capability of our top forwards is rapidly renovated. I desperately want to be wrong.

Oz will do well to be as good as in 2009 based on the forwards' efforts in the Fiji test and looking at their back ups playing for the Barbarians.

You are right about the culture and technical capability of our top forwards needing to be improved - I've been talking about it for years - but that takes a generation of players, at least, to turn around - defining a generation as the typical length of a players career.

The only straw we can hold onto is the return of our injured LHPs, Robinson and Alexander. I am not so worried about THP with Baxter being overlooked but available and Ma'afu still healthy. Deans says he won't look outside the group but what price Baxter to be called back for the Baas and to be in shape for the 2nd test against England if Ma'afu gets hurt, and what about the likes of Holmes getting a recall at LHP?

The 2nd rowers weren't that impressive either last night. Chapman played well doing stuff that could be noticed but the grunt work was not done - nor did young Douglas do himself any favours when he came on.

A very disappointing effort from the tight five as individuals and as a group. The Poms tight five was not that noticeable individually and that is the point because the unit embarrassed the 5 non-tight Oz individuals.
 

Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)
Yeh the England tight 5 were a collective blur of white on the screen piling into rucks.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
On Hynes:



Yeh his defence is great, especially that try saving tackle he put on metres from the line. A reliable, incredibly professional player.
I thought it was a certain try! It was a great effort.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Thanks LG.

Of course, you are 100% right about the whole generational issue. May I add: this is all just as much about the ARU's deficiencies in the lack of intense and credible deeper programs to develop Oz rugby forwards to global standards, and this is fuelled too with our local rugby media's love of the 'running rugby, wonderful back line flair' mantras that have their place, but distort what is really needed for consistent victories against the very best teams in the modern game.

And it always strikes me when I occasionally Google news from the latest Boks games that the SA rugby media and fans are if anything more crazy about their excellent forwards than their backs even when their back perform really well, ie, the forwards in SA are on a good public pedestal, far more so than here.

Apologies in repeating the point, but I would note again that the generational deficiencies are somewhat qualified by the example of the clearly excellent work Link did in only about 4 months (November to February-ish) to totally repair the Reds' historically sad forwards performance. This proves up the role and immediate value of excellent forwards coaching, in depth. There would have been huge Reds defeats to the Bulls and Stormers without Link's work, those 'dazzling backs' would have had far too little to dazzle with.

To the overall Deans point; based upon the hard facts of where our forwards really are, if Deans were smart he'd pursue some radical upgrades right now of his forwards coaching ranks, and just live with the 'temporary embarrassment' which would surely pass with some performance improvements in the Tris. I somehow think that is unlikely to happen, don't you?
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Better still.

the ARU's deficiencies in the lack of intense and credible deeper programs to develop Oz rugby forwards to global standards

our local rugby media's love of the 'running rugby, wonderful back line flair' mantras


You haven't been reading my mail have you RH?
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
LG - no, not recently intercepting your mail. Assume you mean to ARU HQ?, or Rugbyheaven's suggestions box ;-)...
 
D

David

Guest
I thought it was a certain try! It was a great effort.

I too thought it was a certain try, it was a good effort. On a side note every time I've seen your signature Sully I've laughed...... until the Fiji test and the baabaa's game. Now I am more then a little worried. :s
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Greg Holmes seems to be the forgotten man at the moment. I would bring him into the squad.
 

disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
Agreed Ruggo,
Can't believe he was overlooked in the 1st place he's a better scrummager than all 5 other props who had a run in the last two outings.

Totally agree. Why are we playing this kind of rugby? I thought we had got over it a couple of seasons ago. We get smashed in the breakdown every week - even by fucking Fiji - and we don't change. Deans is starting to impres me as the most stubborn coach of the modern era. He has a plan and some favoured players and sticks to it no matter how awful we become.

Agreed Scarfie,
When I was watching last night I just shook my head @ how the Baa Baas would just keep going wide from 1st phase without going forward & also going wide without runners in motion.

There was some many times when they should have been punching the blindside with pick & drives to suck in defenders.

The Good: JOC (James O'Connor), Mitch Chapman, McCallum, Will Chambers, Peter Hynes & Fainga'a

The bad: Valentine, Cummins, & most forwards.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
His kicking has also improved. He made one memorable kick for touch running at inside centre.

Nick Cummins looks promising too- I've seen a few comments about poor handling, but I didn't see any from him (keeping in mind my feed dropped out for about 10-15 minutes in the first half). Aggressive in attack and defense, albeit a bit misguided- I thought he was at fault during the Banahan try, didn't slide to the wide man.

Unfortunately, the two dropped balls you missed were comparative sitters with the try line begging.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
6roucho, sadly, you are 100% correct re Cummins, we can be near-certain that if he'd been of even passable class as winger in such an event, we would have happily won the match and put the kind of further pressure on Johnson we need for Saturday's now delicately poised contest...the English rugby media would have been apoplectic if we had won by say 10-15 points, they have been tearing at Johnson's skin now since the Six Nations (Johnson will surely call Robbie's media adviser and plead: 'mate, how do you get all that happy and supportive rugby press when we've had about the same win-loss ratio?').

Just a btw re earlier posts re the very worrying state of Australia's so-called elite forwards: please switch to Rugbyheaven for a min or two, there's a priceless (or highly depressing) new story there that Williams and Deans are 'now considering a recall of Baxter and Dunning'. What a shambolic admission of poor planning and selection hubris that we vainly considered our depth capable of doing without them. Last night in Perth severely exposed the fallacy of the latest media fad of 'new depth in Australian rugby', especially in the forwards.
 
T

TheTruth

Guest
Both Alexander and Baxter have the ability at THP to get parity with most and will let Robinson do his worst. No Robo and then .................. who?

Weekes may be able to get parity but also may not. The question is who would be the best scrummager left standing in the country and do we compromise the rest of the game to get a stable scrum.

Ma'afu and any in the current squad still standing does not give me great confidence.

It makes me laugh when poor old or young front rowers get flogged in the media or here. Isn't the scrum an 8 man effort. It seems to me that once our scrum started moving backwood the no.6,7 and 8 lift their heads stop pushing and scrum then is forced to retreat further that is, now 8 against 5 - unbeatable and "looks" terrible

Would have thought bthat most of the "push" is to come from 4,5 and 8 - the props have to get their hit right and then the push exerted - if the push is not equal to the other team then backwards we go. Therefore should not a lot of blame be directed at the other 5 blokes and not JUST the props
 
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