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ARU take over the Western Force.

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Strewthcobber

Simon Poidevin (60)
Funnily enough, the Force tried something similar on a smaller scale when they started ... and they would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for that pesky, flaky Firepower.
It raises a good point, if a competitive Force is a priority for the ARU, the firepower debacle at least shows that you can get top tier players to go west, if you are can find a way to have them paid. (See also Melbourne Storm and Lions/Swans in the AFL with their salary cap concessions)
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
Exactly kiap.

People are looking at this the wrong way. It's not necessarily about results on the field. It's financial security off the field.
Yup, and the thing is that cutting a 5th team doesn't give the remaining 4 teams 25% each of the money that side received.

Sure, there will be fewer pro contracts available in Australia, so the existing pool of players might boost depth at the other squads ... for a short while.

But soon as the 5th side is gone, Australia's share of SANZAAR revenue will drop.
 

Ozee316

Ward Prentice (10)
I feel like others are looking at this the wrong way. There are more people in Perth and Melbourne combined than there are in Brisbane + Sydney. That is where your revenue comes from - television viewers,even if the teams themselves struggle financially they engage viewers in larger areas.
 

Highlander35

Steve Williams (59)
Something which has to be considered along that line of thinking is that Victorian uptake of Pay TV is the among the lowest in the Nation.
 
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TOCC

Guest
Halving the Waratahs resourcesand market would be catastrophic.
.

This is based on the premise that the Waratahs have achieved 100% saturation of the Sydney market, which i think most people on here would agree hasn't been achieved, not even close. In terms of playing resources it is really no change to the current situation in terms of competition for player recruitment, and in terms of corporate support, Sydney is a large enough market that it could and would cater for two teams without negatively impacting on each other.
 

Marcelo

Ken Catchpole (46)
The crowds in Perth are good for a team that have not any chance to make the playoffs. This will be terrible for Aussie rugby
 

Teh Other Dave

Alan Cameron (40)
There are more people in Perth and Melbourne combined than there are in Brisbane + Sydney.

There are?

I think more pertinently, and what kiap is saying, is that relinquising the Force won't have any financial benefit to the remaining 4 franchises. They're not really vying for the same corporrate dollar as such.

I'm still flabbergasted by the whole Firepower debacle. How could so many people be sucked in by a fuel additive? Did they not learn from Peter Brock's polariser? Surely there must have been enough money kicking around in 2007 to avoid that mob.
 

Forcefield

Ken Catchpole (46)
The mining downturn will pass and our stocks will rise again. The Force as an organisation have fucked a fair number of things up. But we are not alone in that. Hopefully the right lessons are being learnt. We are a parochial lot in WA and the more under threat the Force becomes (ie on the brink), the more likely we are to see a groundswell of support. I dont know if that will come yet. If it came down to it, and a clear direction was in place, I'd spend 1-2k on some kind of fan based bailout. (Why cant we recruit players by kickstarter? Haha).

WA was the right choice at the time and what ifs are wasted energy. Given how little competition there is from league in WA, I believe we will be the right choice again in 10 years when all this is put behind us.

I once thought the Highlanders would never win Super Rugby because their better players often went elsewhere. Proved me wrong. In Aus we have a lot of components (U20s state comp, NRC) to make 5 franchises viable. We just need to weather the storm till we can reap the benefits.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Ok.

So let's ignore the Giants. Why?

Because in 2015 they averaged 10k attendance which is less than the force and were founded on huge capital injection by the AFL and huge draft concessions.

Most proponents of the force argue if the ARU had been able to provide that type of support they'd be in a much better position.

The Wanderers average 12k at every home game. Basically the same as the Force, but were initially very successful. In their first season Sydney FC had their average attendance spike at 18k but it has since dropped slightly each year down to the low 17ks basically on par with their first ever season.

So the Giants pull less fans, the Wanderers only pull the same amount despite quite a bit of initial success and over time after an initial spike, Sydney FC have dropped to their first year levels.

The swans saw their average attendance drop by 5k the year before the Giants entered the comp. This was despite their climb from 12th in 2009 to finish 5th and 6th in the next 2 seasons. In the Giants first year they finished 1st, won the Grand Final and were still down on average attendance prior to GWS.

Their average attendance in 2015 was 700 higher than 2010.

So the swans have definitely seen an impact.

Then there's the other considerations.

If there was a Western Sydney team, would they play at Homebush? If so would the stadium have offered the same incentives for Waratahs games. The team made $400k in 2014. Take out the crowds from 2 Homebush semis and incentives for their Brumbies and Crusaders games and it's probably closer to a $400k loss.

The Giants are a long term investment by the AFL.

Even on your figures (which I accept in good faith) GWS get 10,000 per game - so even if it's correct that Swans dropped 5,000, that's still 5,000 more going to the game. But it's bigger that the short term crowd figures - in the lead up to the Sydney derby, there's a marked increase in AFL coverage in the papers and on TV. Additionally, the AFL now has two vehicles to promote grass roots participation. Also more opportunity for sponsor involvement in the sport.

Similar story with soccer - a small decrease in Sydney FC fans, but 12,000 fans going to WSW games - so a net increase in crowds of over 10,000. Same media story in derby weeks - soccer coverage in Sydney goes from part of a page 3 pages from the back to 3 or 4 pages. Like the AFL, it's good news for soccer.

If there was a 2nd super team based in Sydney (which won't happen by the way), one would assume it would be based at either Parramatta Stadium, Penrith Park or the Sports Complex at Blacktown (unless Homebush gave them an offer they couldn't refuse). I suspect that this imaginary team would make little impact on the Waratahs, but any impact would be offset by fans going who don't/wouldn't go to watch the Waratahs (i.e. new fans). Should this imaginary team ever get past the musings of us on the internet - it would have 2 significant impacts:

1 it would provide a second vehicle to promote grass roots rugby
2 it would serve to address a serious shortcoming inherent in super rugby - the lack of coverage when the Waratahs are away (particular in South Africa)

Please note that in the current climate I am not advocating the establishment of a second super team in Sydney.

I'm not sure what targets that the ARU have set for the Rebels and the Force in terms of grass roots development. If the desire to to have two professional sides operating out of Perth and Melbourne without builidng a solid junior and grass roots programme, then both are doomed to be permanent and expensive money pits.

All of the above illustrates the enormity of the task ahead for rugby in Australia. Rugby doesn't have the money to do everything which needs to be done, let alone should be done. And I remain convinced that those charged with running the game have no idea of the extent of the problems facing the game, let alone how to go about solving them
 

Beer Baron

Phil Hardcastle (33)
They busted a cap in the NRL's a**.

Salary cap, that is ... and only got busted themselves down the track.

If you've got enough money, it papers over all the cracks.

Funnily enough, the Force tried something similar on a smaller scale when they started ... and they would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for that pesky, flaky Firepower.

That was my hidden point. Force also had cash to burn at the start: big name coach, superstars and went nowhere - not once finals contenders apart from 2014.
 

Teh Other Dave

Alan Cameron (40)
Back to the old chestnut of not enough money being put into grassroots footy. The Force's troubles are similar to those of Australian Rugby as a whole - another symptom of the squandered funds and goodwill after RWC2003.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
2 AFL sides in Sydney means a local game every week too. Much easier to get a share of media if you're playing at home.


And the AFL broadcast deal guarantees every state outside of Victoria gets their respective teams a FTA match every week............
 

Teh Other Dave

Alan Cameron (40)
And the AFL broadcast deal guarantees every state outside of Victoria gets their respective teams a FTA match every week....

I admit to being a follower of aerial ping-pong, and you have no idea how much it shits me seeing one of the prescious FTA slots being taken up by a pointless GWS match.

The only consolation is the thought that Queensland has to suffer through both a Lions and a Suns match each week.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
QH absolutely the Giants are an investment by the AFL.

They are investing not to get current fans, but future fans.

They have resulted in a hit to the Swans. If the Waratahs had taken a 5k hit over the last 5 years they would be broke now.

And there is no indication that any Western Sydney team would have greater support than the Force, based on neither start up in Western Sydney in other codes having greater support than the Force.

So it's potential corporate dollar then. And how well have the Waratahs been going with that? How much major sponsor turnover have they head due to sponsors discontinuing?

As I previously noted, weren't the Waratahs selling 2016 jerseys without a major sponsor because they did not have one tied up when the jerseys were made?

Other codes have shown slight hits at times with other teams being introduced.

If the Waratahs had lost 5000 fans in 2011, how would they have fared in the period 2011-2015? They were already skirting close to the red.

Surely talk of splitting any market would only be feasible for a team that was in a position similar to the Reds 2011-2014. And they showed how quickly it can fall apart.
 
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Train Without a Station

Guest
Back to the old chestnut of not enough money being put into grassroots footy. The Force's troubles are similar to those of Australian Rugby as a whole - another symptom of the squandered funds and goodwill after RWC2003.

Really? Many of those squandered funds were put into "grassroots" footy.
 
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