ARU moves to kill off club player payments: A 3rd tier, club rugby and the $60k persuader

[Inside Shoulder]

No. I definitely don't. I think we'd be 30% non NSW or QLD. But that wasn't the point.

The Force squad currently has 13% local players (more if EPS is included). That's double what it was last season and I think it will only rise from this point onwards. I'd like the percentage of local players to be higher than that of NSW or QLD players in 5 years. If we keep recruiting from South Africa, that might not be such a long bow to draw.

So you'd rather be dependent on South afrika than NSW or QLD?
Unfortunately I can see the logic in that!!!

 

[Quick Hands]

See I don't know if I agree with that. Having a quick look over the Brumbies squad, I'd have thought less than 50% could be considered products of Sydney club rugby. To be fair, the Force are pretty close to being less than 50% Sydney products. Maybe my argument is a pointless one.

I honestly believe the Force are capable of sustaining over 50% locally developed players. That will happen a lot quicker if we get the handful of guys who are almost ready into regular high quality competition in which they are receiving feedback and coaching from Force coaches. The same is true of the Rebels. The Brumbies would also benefit. Jake White's intuition has paid off in spades for some guys like Jesse Mogg. How many more Moggs are there out there that aren't getting the chance.

The Brumbies have a good rugby structure in place, but they still need to draw players from Sydney. It's not because they aren't producing good players down there, it's just that the population of Sydney generally and in terms of rugby is so much bigger than places like Perth and Canberra. Mathematically and logically there will be a large pool of elite players coming out of Sydney.

What you say is correct, when you say the pass mark for rugby in Perth and Melbourne will be when they can produce 50% of their own squads. It will be great for rugby in this country when they can.

 

[Quick Hands]

So you'd rather be dependent on South afrika than NSW or QLD?
Unfortunately I can see the logic in that!!!

I was thinking the same and was awaiting clarification.

 

[Forcefield]

So you'd rather be dependent on South afrika than NSW or QLD?
Unfortunately I can see the logic in that!!!

I'd rather be dependent on Perth. I'd rather that the Force survive as a franchise. The fact is that South Africa's scraps are better than yours, and the scraps are less likely to piss off back home when they actually become half decent. We are getting off topic. The Force need entrance into a 3rd Tier competition that allows the handful of local players we have who have made Australian Schoolboys, Australia 'A' Schoolboys or the U20s to go that next step further.

 

[Pfitzy]

Within Sydney is a fucking basket case of rugby. There is no actual governing body, just an overseer for grant money who, when the pot has its annual emptying, pisses off to go look at his own affairs.

Until the schools comp is opened up, and the divisional structure of subbies is reviewed, and the pathways made clear through club rugby, and every stupid bastard reminded that he's not a unique snowflake, we will always be lagging.

Once Sydney fixes it's megalithic issues, the rest of the country should piss it in and we can start thinking up a national comp.

Premier rugby: the third tier we crave. Top 4 clubs from Sydney, 3 from Brisbane, Canberra, Melbourne, Perth, Newcastle, Illawarra. First Grade, Reserve Grade, Colts side.

Club First Division: in each city, run in parallel with the above. Ten teams maximum, so they can finish finals, then play promotion/relegation games during Premier finals. Maximum three grades plus Colts.

Club Second and subsequent Divisions: for the locations that can sustain it. Again, maximum three grades plus colts, maximum ten clubs. Promotion available.

Outside that, have the shits n giggles comps for old boys and fun runners if you want.

 

[Dave Beat]

Well Pfitzy that's putting it out there

 

[I like to watch]

Won't work Pfitzy,
3rd tier is dogshit without the Soup players.
You can't delay all the comps until the soup is over.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I also suspect that 3 team clubs are very expensive to run on a per player basis and sine there would be more clubs overall the total overheads to run all these comps would be likely to increase.
Forcefield perhaps the west should be looking to develop a sense of irony too.

 

[Jets]

One of the problems is that people are too interested in their own backyard, their club, rather than the game as a whole. Some clubs won't make it for a number of reasons including finances, facilities and performance. There is no real way to engage these people into a 3rd tier comp.

One of my mates is a North Sydney fan and he still carries on about how they were unfairly licked out of the NRL. It will be the same with a national comp. People will complain about how their club was mistreated and should have been one of the teams in the comp.

In my view whatever idea they come up with will have some pretty big flaws in it but it's better than what we have now. The teams that are selected to be in it, club or regional, will change over time or evolve into something else. We need to have something in place so we can have local rugby going from March to October.

Look at the number of guys who are contracted now who had never been heard of before the ARC. While it had some major issues it seemed to deliver what we all want, a place for talent to be exposed.

The major thing that they have to get right is that it is financially viable.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The major thing that they have to get right is that it is financially viable.

Based on Dave Beat letter it can only be financially viable (i.e. ARU is 2 years from oblivion) if it has TV rights.
My information is that there is zero interest in TV rights for the comp.

 

[nomis]

Wasn't there a suggestion not so long ago to promote more Unis to have a new 3rd tier made up of universities. If Syd Uni has so many advantages because it's a uni, then why couldn't other Uni's emulate that. Could have Uni of West Syd and UNSW as the NSW reps, two unis from Qld, one each from Perth, Canberra and Melbourne. Super Rugby players to be attached to a uni in the area of their franchise. It would give an automatic supporter base similar to a school, with past and present students (at least) as potential fan bases. An automatic tribe if you like - for players and fans. Because lets face it, the SS is not the answer to the 3rd tier. We now need Super Rugby players to return to the area of their franchise after Super Rugby to lay the foundation beneath their franchise in their state. And choosing only a select few SS teams for a new 3T will be more exclusive of most of the traditional club rugby fans (who's team gets the cut) than having greenfield teams.

There are problems with this of course and there are no easy answers. But it might keep a lot of the junior players in the game if they are going to uni, and also give non-studious players a real incentive to play rugby if scholarships could be offered.

Anyway, does anyone have a link to that article, or remember who wrote it?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

You have assumed that the Universities are interested.

It would appear that many are not Pro-Rugby Tragics (or even actively pro-elite sport).

 

[nomis]

You have assumed that the Universities are interested.

It would appear that many are not Pro-Rugby Tragics (or even actively pro-elite sport).

That's a shame. I thought the old article I was referring to mentioned some interest, but maybe it was just being talked up a bit.

 

[wamberal]

There are no quick fixes, certainly no rational person could expect any new national competition to break even within two years.


There are very few slow fixes, actually. We could start by ensuring that the Shute Shield showcases the best of district rugby, played between competitive teams, preferably at grounds that are okay for television production.


I always come back to the Queensland example of a few years ago, with the match of the round played at Ballymore, which was good for television.


The Ballymore match of the day is history, however. Now it's all loig, loig, loig at the state level. Not just the ABC, but Fox Sports as well, of course.


A game which, for all its shortcomings, is usually played between competitive teams, on a relatively even playing field with decent facilities for viewers at the ground, and at home. Who the hell wants to watch our cosseted Golden Boys swanning around in their pigsty, in front of their fat cat claque?

 

[D-Box]

Wasn't there a suggestion not so long ago to promote more Unis to have a new 3rd tier made up of universities. If Syd Uni has so many advantages because it's a uni, then why couldn't other Uni's emulate that. Could have Uni of West Syd and UNSW as the NSW reps, two unis from Qld, one each from Perth, Canberra and Melbourne. Super Rugby players to be attached to a uni in the area of their franchise. It would give an automatic supporter base similar to a school, with past and present students (at least) as potential fan bases. An automatic tribe if you like - for players and fans.

Setting it up around the universities wont work for a couple of reasons

1. As said by Hugh Jarse the unis arn't interested. In every uni I worked in if they started spending money on elite sports teams there would be an outcry from the academics who struggle to get a cent to actually teach or do research. The most you would get is access to facilities, which for most unis aren't that good. Speaking of facilities it keeps being mentioned that players would have access to the sports science faculties to support the S&C and provide some sports science support. This is where I work, and have worked at two unis that get mentioned as linking up with teams. I can tell you that unless academics or postgrads can find some research in it, they don't have the time on inclination to run servicing, without finical input that isn't going to come. Even if undergrad students service the team the need supervision, which again comes at additional costs.
2. The idea that there will be a ready built rabid support base coming from unis is again a complete myth. Students in Australia don't hang around campuses anymore - they are too busy trying to work, study and have a good time. There is absolutely no chance they are going to rock up and pay (or even just rock up) to watch a team just cause it has their unis logo on it. I was very involved in university sport as an undergrad and still wouldn't have done it. This myth comes from watching American college sport, but what people fail to remember is that in the states most people go and live at or around their campus. There is then nothing else to do - other that go and watch the college sport, and they make it a party, which again will cost money. I remember trying to get students from the music department to come and play at an official university event and we had to pay them.
3. Universities can't just hand out scholarships. One it cost too much money and two undergraduate university entry is merit based here in Australia. There is very little room to move to let a student in who hasn't met the criteria. Have a look as the recent nepotism scandal at UQ. The sports scholarships that most universities provide basically consist of gym access, some academic advocacy and about $1000-3000. Not really going to help out much.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Good Post D-Box. Puts to bed some myths.

Seems that Syd Uni's "unfair advantage" comes down to:
a. Mobilising Alumni and supporters via the Foundation
b. Good S&C programmes
c. Good coaches
d. Good culture
e. Player and administrator discipline
f. Good governance
h. Cohesion between Colts and Grade programmes

Admittedly Alumni and supporters are well connected to people with deep pockets, which helps with funding b, and c.

I see clubs like the MMM and the Woodies who seem to be doing rather well with regards to b, c, d and e.
Anecdotally it would appear that Mighty Two Blues seem to have nailed c, d, and f, and to a degree e, and this has been the root cause of their recent resurgence.

Aust Rugby needs to look at how to harness the various Supporter Groups to enable the Clubs to better level the playing fields.

Provision of information and courses can assist clubs to achieve better results in b, and c.

Getting better at d, e, f, and h is within the realm of the clubs to implement, but some information could be circulated from the centre on "best practices" that could assist clubs develop in these areas.


All clubs approach the Schoolboy Rockstars, and if they don't they should.

Like the previous situation in the 80's/90's with the Wicks, Schoolboy Rockstars will go where they perceive they will benefit the most, and at the moment a large proportion head to Camperdown, but a fair few are with other clubs, so all is not lost.

If the rockstars and other cattle are voting with their feet, then the clubs need to look at what they are offering. Land them young and keep them.

 

[nomis]

Setting it up around the universities wont work for a couple of reasons

1. As said by Hugh Jarse the unis arn't interested. In every uni I worked in if they started spending money on elite sports teams there would be an outcry from the academics who struggle to get a cent to actually teach or do research. The most you would get is access to facilities, which for most unis aren't that good. Speaking of facilities it keeps being mentioned that players would have access to the sports science faculties to support the S&C and provide some sports science support. This is where I work, and have worked at two unis that get mentioned as linking up with teams. I can tell you that unless academics or postgrads can find some research in it, they don't have the time on inclination to run servicing, without finical input that isn't going to come. Even if undergrad students service the team the need supervision, which again comes at additional costs.
2. The idea that there will be a ready built rabid support base coming from unis is again a complete myth. Students in Australia don't hang around campuses anymore - they are too busy trying to work, study and have a good time. There is absolutely no chance they are going to rock up and pay (or even just rock up) to watch a team just cause it has their unis logo on it. I was very involved in university sport as an undergrad and still wouldn't have done it. This myth comes from watching American college sport, but what people fail to remember is that in the states most people go and live at or around their campus. There is then nothing else to do - other that go and watch the college sport, and they make it a party, which again will cost money. I remember trying to get students from the music department to come and play at an official university event and we had to pay them.
3. Universities can't just hand out scholarships. One it cost too much money and two undergraduate university entry is merit based here in Australia. There is very little room to move to let a student in who hasn't met the criteria. Have a look as the recent nepotism scandal at UQ. The sports scholarships that most universities provide basically consist of gym access, some academic advocacy and about $1000-3000. Not really going to help out much.

Great post D-Box! Really helpful (inside) information - always the best kind. Boy! Easy to see why the idea didn't stick around for too long.

 

[Joe King]

Hey, new here at Green and Gold Rugby. Nice thread. informative and insightful. Good to see such a high level discussion.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Welcome to Gaggerland Joe King.

We try to play nicely with the others.

 

[Pfitzy]

One of my mates is a North Sydney fan and he still carries on about how they were unfairly licked out

Never, EVER complain about being licked out. Ungrateful.

Super squad players who aren't required by the top team are in their Premier side. Drop reserve grade if you insist, but need Colts to keep players coming through Holden Cup style.