• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

ARU moves to kill off club player payments: A 3rd tier, club rugby and the $60k persuader

Status
Not open for further replies.

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
And so the obsession with the "third tier" strikes again.

When will they learn? Remember the Ricoh Cup? Or the Australian Rugby Championships, full of made-up teams no-one cared about (was it the West Sydney Rams? No-one knows. No-one cares)?

The difficulty with the third tier is that it's totally artificial. Right or wrong, the Rugby supporter base is club-based. Look, I'm going to be overseas on Saturday, but you can bet I'll be checking my phone every few minutes to get Grand Final updates. But I wouldn't cross the road to watch the South Sydney Shireboys play the Perth Quokkas.

So, where are the players for this competition going to come from? Mostly, they will be the Super Rugby leftovers after the international season starts. So, how exactly will we improve the standard of Austraian Rugby by having the same bunch of players ending their Super seasons and then facing each other again in a less intense, less serious competition?

Yes, I know, they do that now - they go back to Shute Shield, or wherever. But that's important. Because there they carry out a really important function. Look, let's say you're a young back playing for Southern District (by way of example - I don't have any specific guy in mind). And you do well in the juniors, and you're a star in Colts, so you go into First Grade never having played against anyone older than you. And then you hit a Sydney University team full of Super 15 backs. I suspect you learn a thing or two that afternoon. And when you get ready to press for a Super Rugby contract, you have a better idea of what's required, because you've seen it at first hand. That's why it's a good thing tha these guys go back to their clubs - they strengthen the base of the game.

Now, the ARU proposal does the opposite - it turns the Shute Shield into the Kentwell Cup. And the problem with that is that, over time, clubs will wither and die. Why put all that effort into developing young players just so they can turn 21 and never see you again?

Australian Rugby has three tiers: international, provincial and club. Instead of futzing around looking for another tier that no-one wants, the better option would be to devote resources to club Rugby to make it better and stronger.

Have you watched the ITM Cup on TV this season? The standard isn't frighteningly good. Eastwood would come close to winning it, I'd reckon. Shute Shield could be a fantastic competition if it had just a few more competitive clubs. Now, addressing that issue would be an ARL initiative I'd support.

Oh, and by the way, if you're not convinced, have a look at cricket. Thirty years ago, Test players turned out in about one third of the Grade games. What that meant was that you didn't progress to the next level until you'd done well against the Waughs or made runs against Geoff Lawson or Mike Whitney. It was a great system for developing young talent. Now the average age of most First Grade sides is about 22, and they never see a Test player until they play a Test match, when they freeze like rabbits in the headlights. It has been a disaster for cricket, removing representative players almost entirely from the base of the pyramid - not a model for Rugby to emulate.


Is establishing a National Club Competition necessarily all that artificial?

Yes, from the article they did mention using amalgamated squads based along existing structures but that would likely only be for the sake of Perth and Melbourne representation. At a stretch perhaps even Canberra (but to be fair Tuggeranong would be competitive). The rest of the 7 or 8 teams (if they go with 10 teams) would be traditional clubs.

We'll have to wait and see. Though I'd imagine to qualify for this competition you will likely need to do so through your local competition.

Oh, and it was the Western Sydney Rams, Sydney Fleet, Central Coast Rays, Perth Spirit, East Coast Aces, Melbourne Rebels, Canberra Vikings and the Ballymore Tornadoes.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Yes, from the article they did mention using amalgamated squads based along existing structures but that would likely only be for the sake of Perth and Melbourne representation.


My understanding of the plan is that there would be "amalgamated squads" from Sydney and Brisbane as well as some standalone teams - i.e. some Shute Shield/Premier Rugby teams would play in the Nats as well.
If so that is a death sentence for the non-standalone clubs: why would the best players play for them other than in their first season when they are "discovered" and move to the standalones for their 2nd.
Happy to read why this is mistaken because i do think that a 3rd tier is imperative so I, actually, want a workable outcome.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
And didn't they transform the game in west Sydney, Perth and the Central Coast?

Er, no, they didn't.

The ARC did give a huge kick along for a large number of young and gifted playrs. Yes, it was hopelessly botched. It should never have started in a World Cup year, when the best players, and the most cashed up and vocal fans were over in the UK. It should never have had a team on the Gold Coast. Expenses should have been controlled.

Better planned, better funded, and maybe better targeted, it could still be going, it would have fitted in well after the Soup season.


The selfishness of the Sydney clubs, or most of them, was reprehensible.


We are well behind the 8-ball. Having a shot at what was a potentially good initiative might make you feel warm, but what is your alternative? A slow, lingering, death. Because that is what the current spiral downwards looks like to me.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
We are well behind the 8-ball. Having a shot at what was a potentially good initiative might make you feel warm, but what is your alternative? A slow, lingering, death. Because that is what the current spiral downwards looks like to me.


A very good post.
This has to be addressed at all levels of the game.
If funds are short then start at the bottom because without there is nothing else.
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
My understanding of the plan is that there would be "amalgamated squads" from Sydney and Brisbane as well as some standalone teams - i.e. some Shute Shield/Premier Rugby teams would play in the Nats as well.
If so that is a death sentence for the non-standalone clubs: why would the best players play for them other than in their first season when they are "discovered" and move to the standalones for their 2nd.
Happy to read why this is mistaken because i do think that a 3rd tier is imperative so I, actually, want a workable outcome.


I don't disagree. That's why I've always been a fan of using a representative model along the lines of the ITM Cup rather than standalone clubs. I have only really given any thought to the use of standalone clubs as a means of getting something off the ground. The down side is that it would lead to the decline of those not involved. Which would be a shame.
 

Ranga

Frank Row (1)
Why announce that this is happening if they then don't follow up with anything afterwards? Even the few people still interested will stop giving a sh.. soon. Tell me you had the prawn cocktail, and it was dry, but tell me something.

I want to care! Help me to care!
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
Why announce that this is happening if they then don't follow up with anything afterwards? Even the few people still interested will stop giving a sh.. soon. Tell me you had the prawn cocktail, and it was dry, but tell me something.

I want to care! Help me to care!


According to the article I've just finished reading. It was a fiery affair. Though, apparently the clubs aren't opposed to the idea of a national club competition. It's supposedly still in the 'conceptual' stages. Which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
And didn't they transform the game in west Sydney, Perth and the Central Coast?

Er, no, they didn't.
OK, you thought that in the very first year,without any support or advertising, these artificial sides would miraculously inherit rusted on supporters?
Before they had scored a point or won a game?
Please, give me an example where this business model has worked previously?
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
According to the article I've just finished reading. It was a fiery affair. Though, apparently the clubs aren't opposed to the idea of a national club competition. It's supposedly still in the 'conceptual' stages. Which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
Have you got a link to the article?
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
According to the article I've just finished reading. It was a fiery affair. Though, apparently the clubs aren't opposed to the idea of a national club competition. It's supposedly still in the 'conceptual' stages. Which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

This is one of those situations where the concept - the strategy, in other words - is probably the most important and most difficult thing to agree on, and get right.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Have you watched the ITM Cup on TV this season? The standard isn't frighteningly good. Eastwood would come close to winning it, I'd reckon. Shute Shield could be a fantastic competition if it had just a few more competitive clubs. Now, addressing that issue would be an ARL initiative I'd support.

I think it is somewhat fanciful to suggest that Eastwood would come close to winning the ITM Cup. I don't think that would be the case.

I think the more important thing to look at would be how the bottom 6 teams each from the Shute Shield and Premier Rugby would fare in the ITM Cup Championship (the lower division). I think they would get absolutely smashed almost every week.

Herein lies the problem that the ARC tried to address. We have far too many teams in our third tier which means that talent is spread too thinly.

Whilst the concept might be artificial in that it creates teams out of nothing, it would seem to be the only way to address the fact that by way of having too many teams, our third tier is too weak and too far below Super Rugby.
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
Yep I saw it in my early morning trawl through the papers.
I suspect it is underplaying the anger of the clubs because the source of news and stories is the ARU - when was the last time Georgina Robinson wrote a story about club rugby?
We need Phil Wilkins back!!!!


I could imagine some of the language used wouldn't have been appropriate for publishing if my experience playing Colts in the Sydney club comp is any indicator.
 

p.Tah

John Thornett (49)
most sponsorships are provided by keen Club supporters.
In practice, you will see a reduction of sponsorships,with sponsors paying the stars directly.
why don't the sponsors just sponsor the club? The players can still have the company name or afflication on their jersey. Why is it important to sponsor a specific player?
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
why don't the sponsors just sponsor the club? The players can still have the company name or afflication on their jersey. Why is it important to sponsor a specific player?




It's a tough issue. On one side of it, if teams stop paying player's (and if it's around $10,000 a season per player max, not suggesting every 1st grader is earning that) it could allow the district clubs to use the excess funds for development reasons particularly at the junior levels on the other there is the possibility of losing talent to others endeavours.

Maybe employment arrangements with friendly employers could be the way to negate the effect of losing the ability to pay players. All I know if the clubs had an extra $100,000 each to invest back into junior club structures then the game would be a lot healthier at the crucial level of the game.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
I am sure that if player payments were banned,club sponsorships would reduce substantially.There would be no extra $100k to lavish on juniors.
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
I am sure that if player payments were banned,club sponsorships would reduce substantially.There would be no extra $100k to lavish on juniors.


That thought did occur to me. I doubt clubs will go for the proposal. I'd imagine they'll look to source a means of replacing the $60,000 the ARU would provide before they gave away their ability to retain talent.

If that was the case then the ARU could use the funds to help make Penrith more competitive or as I suggested above, better resource junior rugby.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top