ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[Hugh Jarse]

junior-gold-cup-plan-pdf.4060


I think the attached document from Top Cat may be deserve some oxygen on this thread, and may be what George Smith and others have alluded to in various previous posts.


An interesting read.

ARU seem to want to take on the Mungo clubs summer development academies and competitions, and perhaps steal much of the thunder from some of the fledgling District Club junior academies that have started popping up all over the place.

This could be a good thing.

 

[George Smith]

junior-gold-cup-plan-pdf.4060


I think the attached document from Top Cat

Great reading thanks Top Cat[/quote] and Huge

.

1. Structure & Development
IMHO the various bodies purporting to represent junior rugby players should each be dissolved. None of them (club and school streams) develop players. Clubs (AJRU, NSWJRU, SJRU) are glorified tournament competition organisers. The schools' program is mainly hijacked by the various private schools in their respective associations. These schools are only interested in their own glory (read here GPS, CAS etc). The ARU is the only current body who develops rugby talent.

The SJRU has only recently taken on competition management with their former zones doing it before. The highly successful and effective MNZ organised well over 65% of all players competitions and the SJRU have only absorbed this formally under their own banner several seasons ago. As mentioned in other threads this junior competition management in NSW metro could easily be handled by Subbies excellent machine.

2. JGC Latest Draft (4)
Overall this draft now reflects an appeasement to clubland in requiring that all participants must be registered with a junior club. What happens to the school based player who isn't in the 1st XV?
Other weaknesses is the total exclusion of 'girls' as this draft solely focuses on boys and therefore is quite discriminatory. Also if we limit it to club registered players then why have separate trials rather than use existing various State Champs?

3. Schools Rugby
It seems the ARU has taken the pragmatic route and said lets fix the system where it is broken (ie Clubland) leaving the powerful schools to continue. When you have a look at the ASRU you appreciate that they at least dangle the only single point of difference and competitive advantage we have over other codes of football (excl soccer). That is, international tours.

They do this by very active fundraising which the AJRU (and its affiliates) is incapable of under the present elected officials.

4. Where next
Lets segregate the various requirements facing rugby:
a) player involvement (Participation/Community Rugby), including competitions
b) player development

I would recommend that club development falls under Community Rugby. The new GM Participation (recruited from Cricket Australia) will be tasked to tackle these and I hope he can crack a few heads to achieve it.

 

[juniors spectator]

George Smith

The document makes very interesting reading but perhaps the devil is in the detail.

It proposes 6 country nsw centres but only 4 Sydney ones. I would have thought there would be more players in Sydney than in country.

If these centres are also the teams for the games I suspect the city ones will overwhelm their country counterparts...look at the results from this years city v country day!

As for registration at club for a requirement surely this just means signing a piece of paper...players who are in their schools first xv or even 16a are unlikely to play much if any club rugby.

As for development and its translation to regular club rugby something needs a good shakeup...how is the ARU developing rugby in western Sydney?

There are development officers there but how many players join a club and regularly play? One off gala days are all very good and I suspect help tick kpi boxes but I doubt they contribute much to participation.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I too think that they have understated the Sydney Metro numbers for the Under 15's, and overstated the demand for the Sydney Metro Under 17 teams.

I just can't see many of the elite rugby schools releasing their "product" in the Under 17's, or at least the product that ARU JGC people want to get their hands on. I'd like the U17 programme to be targeting kids in the CCC, AICES and CHS system.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Here you go

Umm Top Cat, Where did you get that document from?

There is no reference to it on the ARU web site under the News or Try Rugby section of the ARU Web site, not that ARU website is all that accurate. The Aust Schools RU web site still has the previous version of the pathway to gold document that makes no mention of the JGC.

Google tells me that some of the Franchises and associate unions have picked up the gist of the document and have prepared recent media releases on the JCG (Force, Sunshine Coast RU and a couple of others) on their web sites.

So it looks like it is a done deal when they start recruiting for Coaches and managers, although George Smith in a recent post makes a reference to draft 4. Is this the final approved document, or is it still a work in progress?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

It looks like the proposal is fair dinkum and the unpaid interns are just a little lax in getting the various web pages updated.

An email from the ARU'S NSW Coach Ed Coordinator lobbed into my inbox yesterday inviting me to apply for one of the Coaching, Managing, Logistics etc positions for the 2013/14 Junior Gold Cup.

 

[Tahspark]

Snip...

An email from the ARU'S NSW Coach Ed Coordinator lobbed into my inbox yesterday inviting me to apply for one of the Coaching, Managing, Logistics etc positions for the 2013/14 Junior Gold Cup.

All the best with your application/s HJ.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

It has all the hallmarks of a mass, almost spamlike, mail out from the ARU to anyone on MyRugby who has ever had any coaching qualifications.

As much as I may be tempted to apply and do my bit for the cause, I have a throat problem* that will prevent me from committing more time to the study and advancement of the noble art of Rugby.




*Throat Problem: La Jarse will slit my throat if I spend more time on rugby than I already do.

 

[the baz]

junior-gold-cup-plan-pdf.4060


I think the attached document from Top Cat may be deserve some oxygen on this thread, and may be what George Smith and others have alluded to in various previous posts.


An interesting read.

ARU seem to want to take on the Mungo clubs summer development academies and competitions, and perhaps steal much of the thunder from some of the fledgling District Club junior academies that have started popping up all over the place.

This could be a good thing.

It think it could be a great move forward if properly instituted, but there are issues that i have been told Hugh.
Firstly, this will decimate the regional academies of sports rugby programs, programs that, i am led to believe, have spent years getting it right, and have allowed country players to test themselves against sydney clubs as pre-season trials.
Second, where will they get the coaches. Sydney are finding it hard to get quality coaching for rep programs, so where will they find more coaching to step up another level, and country have been dusted by city for many years, where will they get quality coaches?
Lastly, the cost, where are these kids going to find the money to pay for this? Rugby is getting too expensive. Yes i know it is partly funded, but to pay around $600 is a bit too much.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

All good points the baz.

Some of these have been identified on other threads where the JGC has been discussed of late. Especially the $600+ cost. That is a bit rich - pardon the pun, but they do note that they will try to source sponsorship to reduce the cost. Good luck to them, as I think that they might struggle in todays business environment.

The Mods are in the process of moving some of the posts on the JGC from other threads to this one as the central repository to discuss the proposal. You will note that of late the title of this thread has subtly changed. I understand that they will be leaving a message on these other threads that the discussion on Junior Gold Cup should be held on this thread.

I have noted that the JGC will effectively force a major rethink for the metro district academies, some of which have only just been established in the last year or two. It looks like this will be a fairly major kick in the guts for the Country Academies as well, however in many respects if handled correctly, this initiative will leverage off and build on the efforts of the past rather than simply replace them with the new boys in town.

Coaches. Hmm .... they seem to be looking for level 3 Coaches. Are there that many around that are willing to give their time for gratis for this programme?

I know that many State Champ Teams in Sydney struggle to find Level 2 coaches for the State Champs. If they struggle in the big cities, then HTF is the country going to come up with the required numbers.

Country development: Yeah they need investment in developing their organic talent. There is plenty there, and I am sure that there is the same in Qld Country JRU.

One problem being that as soon as a kid shows some promise, enticements to finish their schooling in the Brissie or Sydney "Rugby Schools" seem to find their way on to the table.

Some of this is in relation to items to be discussed on THAT thread, and some are the genuine desire of the parents to send the boy at full fare to study in the city and develop as a rugby player in the best environment that they can find.

Someone on the NSW AAGPS thread has posted a Country JRU Origin AAGPS team, and quite frankly, it is a bloody good team.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Re-post from another thread

The way I read this is that the U16 cohort development will be left to the Schools system (and the Juniors via NSW State Championships) - pretty much the same as now.

Left to their own devices is one way of looking at it from an ARU perspective. Those devices will be the existing mishmash of the Village club system for National champs (with all the loopholes and qualification criteria rorting for the Ghost players), and the NSW SRU Presidents teams, CAS, ISA, CCC, Country Schools, CHS, and AICES development "machines".

Obviously the ARU talent staff will monitor the Junior Gold Cup Boys in the "year off" because they will be invited back into the programme for the U17 JGC in the November of their U16 year.

It seems that NGS will work in parallel with this revised Junior Gold pathway for the "elite", and they will probably have 16 and 17 y/o intakes with the odd 15 year old in the programme as well.

In summary, a boy will be identified in their U14's year for entry into the U15 JGC to be played in the Autumn of their U15 year. They play club and/or school for the U15's with no ARU development in that Summer (unless that are parachuted into NGS). There appears to be a June Long weekend NSWJRU State Champs to look forward to, and Sydney vs Country U15 for the lucky ones. There will be no ARU investment in the boys in the summer of their U15/U16 year.

In their U16 year, the boys will be competing for Juniors State Championships and Schools Championships (not sure what form the National U16's will take - change is in the wind), and for an invitation into the U17 JGC programme for the Summer of the U16/U17 year.

In their U17 year, after the JGC games in the Autumn, the boys will be "lost" to the ARU development (unless they are selected into NGS. Lucky ones may play Opens schoolboys reps in that year (typically Year 11). Some others may play district reps with the NSW JRU State champs and the Sydney vs Country matches, remembering that many if not all of the previous years U16 Ghost players do not turn up in the Juniors U17 championships.

In the summer of their U17/U18 year, there is only NGS programmes run. In the U18 year, there is only Schoolboys reps for development (and NGS). Most of the advanced/elite kids not in AAGPS/CAS/ISA 1st XV programmes will be in the Colts rather than Juniors.

I kind of like the proposal but forsee the following issues:

Cost: $600 plus is still a fair amount for some battler families. I hope that there will be a case to wave fees in the event of genuine hardship, or we will miss out on some good talent.

Timing: The arms race has resulted in 1st XV's training over Summer, and unconfirmed some 16A's. If the intention is to capture the best, then some kids will be forced to decide "Do you want a slot in the school team, or the ARU programme - you can't do both". The answer will be obvious for those Boys with a commercial relationship with their Education providor. Scots have pulled their boys out of the NGS this year. Joeys allows their boys to do JGS but not NGS.

If the intent is to spread the development net wider than the elite Private schools, then this timing choice may achieve its intent.

Competition with other sports. Many kids actually do summer sports, some at an elite level. They will be forced to chose, fun stuff with their mates at Cricket, Not so Little Athletics, Nippers Colts, swimming or whatever vs the JGC.

U17's. With all the development over the summer of the U16/U17 year, I still can't see this resulting in too many kids remaining in the SJRU and Country JRU U17 club competitions. Most of the "elite" will be locked up in the school 1st XV system, and it is well known that the physicality of the 1st XV games is such that many kids can not back up for Club on Sundays like they used to be able to do in the U13's and U14s. The better kids from Non-Rugby schools will continue to play Colts over Juniors at U17 and opens.

Immaturity. The concept is full of sport buzzwords and fancy almost Deansesque gobbledegook, wishes and dreams rather than concrete cold hard facts. It seems to have been cobbled together in a hurry. Given that we are almost at the end of August, and there are milestones that should have been achieved in August, I think that the 2014 JGC will be a Dingoesque "play what is in front of you" arrangment with quite a few changes to be made to the final product for 2015 and beyond.

Numbers in the programme. I think that there are too few positions available for Sydney Metro in the U15 programme, and too many slots in the U17 programme.


This seems to be the death sentence for the Australian JRU, and could even put the State JRU's out of business. Not that that would be a bad thing.

I do like the provision for the smaller states (TAS, NT, and SA) to be involved. This will take years to bear fruit but if it isn't done, there will be no significant growth in these States and territories.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Some more re-posts from Australian Junior Rugby Union Thread
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/australian-junior-rugby-union.11657/page-4

junior-gold-cup-plan-pdf.4060

I think the attached document from Top Cat may be the death sentence for the Australian Junior Rugby Union.

The ARU seem to have mounted a hostile take over, or simply stepped into a vacuum.

I had heard something about this previously but nothing substantial. Interesting set up. Especially with the attempt to include a SA based squad. Looks like an expansion to build more depth in the youth representative player pool while focusing on development both physically and in terms of trying to provide the highest possible level of competition. If it achieve these goals it could go a long way to improving some of the issues regarding a players Rugby development in time. The 15 year old kids that start with this program will benefit most from it.

Picking winners at age 14 is not a sound strategy.
The program should be much more inclusive at this lower age level.
Especially if they have the hide to charge the participants for the program.

I think the main reason that this programme is targeting 14 (U15) and 16 (U17) year olds is that the various Schools RU's have the 15 (U16) and Opens (U18) all stitched up and are not prepared to budge or give up any of their kingdom. The various JRU's are struggling for relevance in the upper age groups and are an obvious easy target for take over/sorting out.

I think that they need a wider net at the Under 15 level and less at the U17 level.

Cost seems a little steep and many battler families may baulk at this. Hopefully there will be an ability to waive fees in the event of demonstrated hardship.

The NSW Country folk may embrace this because ATM, NSW Country JRU charge something like $1200 for the right to participate in their junior rep programme. This will represent a saving to them.

If they're charging money,it should be open to anyone with the interest at 14.
They should have the confidence in the program,and run it continuously through the ages.
The ARU needs to take ownership of junior development,and wrest control off the Schools.
Mr Pulver needs to understand that you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.

I does state that they plan to reduce that levy as they develop sponsorship for the competition. i actually don't mind this structure as it would be easy enough for the ARU to add another level above the U17s to establish a national U20s setup eventually.

That's sort of what I got from it. It's meant to be an integrated program but with a great deal of emphasis on providing more opportunities for klids outside of the elite school comps.

I don't think the levy will be all that restrictive. I think you'd be surprised how far parents will go to give their kids the opportunity if the are selected.

The Under 20's "pathway" vehicle seems to remain the "Academy" as per the pathway diagram on page 23 of the JGC Plan.

There are many who would say that this is not working, however when challenged as to nominate which athletes missed out on selection for this years Under 20 Team for the Jnr RWC, there was only one or two names mentioned.

What appears to be missing at U20 level is preparatory matches to harden them up in preparation. Training runs can only do so much.

I was more or less referring to the opportunity such a restructure of the U15-17s pathway to this format could present if they ever were to look at setting it up. Not that they ever necessarily would. However, as you allude to there is a need for more competitive matches for U20 athletes and some sort of appropriate league would provide that. They wouldn't need to keep the same number of teams as by that age you know who your most promising U20s are and you could organise accordingly.

 

[Hugie]

I like the JGC program.
In almost all other sports that we take seriously at around 16 the kids (who aspire to higher representation) would be training 4 times a week, swimmer would be getting up at 4:00 am, gymnists twice a day, runners 5 times a week etc. This has been the case for decades. All that the rugby schools and Sydney Uni have done is worked out that if you do this with Rugby, the level of rugby will step up an order (this is not rocket science).

I'd make these comments on the program:

• The U17s post Christmas would need to be putting in at least a gym session and sprint session a week on top of the 3 days committment. This would need to be logged and tracked with targets.
• The clubland system needs to lever straight off the back of this program to provide another 5 high level games (district/zone) for the boys. Do away with the gala day/weekend stuff and play full games. Sydney/Brisbane and Country selector can select by watching a number really solid full games of rugby. This would give those boys in clubland at least 10 high level full games, and those in the rugby schools program least 15. Which more like what I think is needed, particularly for the Country boys.
• The $660- is a modest levy by comparison to the costs of other sports. And certainly cheaper than going to a rugby private school. $1.5 mil from the ARU is about what I thought is the right number.
• It seems that part of the objective of the JGC program is for the coaches, managers and players to take back the leasons and experiences gain to their clubs and schools. This seems smart to me, rather than isolate an elite group.
• The program needs to be supported by a general program of promoting rugby in the none rugby schools and villages etc to expand the base supporting this (with an emphasis on breaking the perception that rugby is an elitist sport). Otherwise the pyramid will bulge in the middle.

All in all a well thought out program which has a good chance of working if executed well.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I like the JGC program.
In almost all other sports that we take seriously at around 16 the kids (who aspire to higher representation) would be training 4 times a week, swimmer would be getting up at 4:00 am, gymnists twice a day, runners 5 times a week etc. This has been the case for decades. All that the rugby schools and Sydney Uni have done is worked out that if you do this with Rugby, the level of rugby will step up an order (this is not rocket science).

I'd make these comments on the program:

• The U17s post Christmas would need to be putting in at least a gym session and sprint session a week on top of the 3 days committment. This would need to be logged and tracked with targets.
• The clubland system needs to lever straight off the back of this program to provide another 5 high level games (district/zone) for the boys. Do away with the gala day/weekend stuff and play full games. Sydney/Brisbane and Country selector can select by watching a number really solid full games of rugby. This would give those boys in clubland at least 10 high level full games, and those in the rugby schools program least 15. Which more like what I think is needed, particularly for the Country boys.
• The $660- is a modest levy by comparison to the costs of other sports. And certainly cheaper than going to a rugby private school. $1.5 mil from the ARU is about what I thought is the right number.
• It seems that part of the objective of the JGC program is for the coaches, managers and players to take back the leasons and experiences gain to their clubs and schools. This seems smart to me, rather than isolate an elite group.
• The program needs to be supported by a general program of promoting rugby in the none rugby schools and villages etc to expand the base supporting this (with an emphasis on breaking the perception that rugby is an elitist sport). Otherwise the pyramid will bulge in the middle.

All in all a well thought out program which has a good chance of working if executed well.

It's actually very similar to that of the systems RL has used to develop young talent for some time except its intended to be on a more national scale, which I think is excellent. Knowing a few guys who developed via the League system they'd train with their suburban clubs twice a week (in the U15 bracket) and twice a week with the grade club. Outside of this particularly in the pre-season many would also do morning strength and conditioning sessions (not necessarily weights, a lot of body weight stuff) as provided by their trainers at the grade clubs of their own accord (though, it was part of their training regime which was compulsory).

This is how I think the ARU HPU envisage occurring with this program and if coordinated correctly could elevate play to a much higher level as well as make Rugby a far more attractive options for more kids who are looking to make Rugby a career but until recently haven't had the more professional training environments available ion the game to chase that opportunity. You'd be surprised how many we lose to League for that very reason.

As for promoting Rugby in the non Rugby schools. Absolutely. If I were selecting one of these teams, say if there was one in the West/South West of Sydney, I'd be approaching schools in the area looking to get information out about trials for this to broaden the net as much as possible in terms of talent for its first year. In the second they should be looking to get more school actually playing Rugby in some sort of set up alongside clubs to identify more talent.

 

[Man on the hill]

the first subtle changes have been implemented!

In years gone by, the winner of the State Champs U14 have been picked as one to represent City in the annual city country fixtures. This season - they actually selected a genuine representative SJRU U14 side.

This year's U14s become next years U15 - the revolution has commenced - but as usual fort fumble forgot to tell anyone, or perhaps they hoped we just wouldn't notice.

 

[Top Cat]

Umm Top Cat, Where did you get that document from?

There is no reference to it on the ARU web site under the News or Try Rugby section of the ARU Web site, not that ARU website is all that accurate. The Aust Schools RU web site still has the previous version of the pathway to gold document that makes no mention of the JGC.

Google tells me that some of the Franchises and associate unions have picked up the gist of the document and have prepared recent media releases on the JCG (Force, Sunshine Coast RU and a couple of others) on their web sites.

So it looks like it is a done deal when they start recruiting for Coaches and managers, although George Smith in a recent post makes a reference to draft 4. Is this the final approved document, or is it still a work in progress?

Sorry Hugh but I haven't been on for the past few days as I have been busy editing rugby videos and getting my boys ready for the Village finals.

The document came from a from rep coach via an ARU contact who will be involved in the selection of the JGS up this way. I certainly didn't write it myself . I was also told on the weekend by the ARU contact that he really wants my boys to attend as they will be playing games against Vic, ACT and other JGS teams, and that it will be far better than what NSW Country has to offer.

 

[S'UP]

the first subtle changes have been implemented!

In years gone by, the winner of the State Champs U14 have been picked as one to represent City in the annual city country fixtures. This season - they actually selected a genuine representative SJRU U14 side.

This year's U14s become next years U15 - the revolution has commenced - but as usual fort fumble forgot to tell anyone, or perhaps they hoped we just wouldn't notice.

I think you will find that the 14's will go to a possibles and probables trial next year the same as they did for the 17's this year. I would guess that the 14's this year will look totally different next year as the boys grow always happens except for a select few.
The JGC needs to focus on those boys outside the big rugby schools as discussed in different threads on this forum the big rugby school provide excellent coaching and facilities this is something that boys outside those schools don't get a lot of, if JGC focuses on boys outside of those schools it would be a good thing for junior rugby.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ and the Village Clubs (and SJRU/Country Zones) need to be ready to pounce and keep the JGC graduates in Junior Clubland with viable challenging competitions with the talent reasonably widely spread, and not just concentrated in a couple of A Division Super clubs (AAGPS Arms race anyone?).

The Clubs, and Juniors Admin will need to work very closely with the JGC organisers to keep the boys "in rugby".

 

[Rugby Mum]

^^^ and the Village Clubs (and SJRU/Country Zones) need to be ready to pounce and keep the JGC graduates in Junior Clubland with viable challenging competitions with the talent reasonably widely spread, and not just concentrated in a couple of A Division Super clubs (AAGPS Arms race anyone?).

The Clubs, and Juniors Admin will need to work very closely with the JGC organisers to keep the boys "in rugby".

And trust that the ARU have the best interests of rugby and developing rugby for these players. I agree the program has a lot of pro's and believe the re structure is to create a pathway for players at the next level. Although some see it as " another of too many program's" or " yet another pathway". The saying my Dad taught me comes to mind " if you're going to pay peanuts you have to expect many monkeys to work!"
Or words to that effect.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[sarcophilus]

my Dad's sayin's
"you don't have to be working to help here but its mad "
"Pay monkeys you get idiots"

So how many of this year's Sydney U/16 will be acceptable to the 2014 U17 given the post state cup 4 game rule has only been discussed after the finals weekend of Village comps. There may be a couple that would be hoping for NSW schoolboys

this would be up there with disqualifying John McEnroe at the Australian open because he didn't know the number of whinging warning he could have had been reduced

how many were expected to play 1st or 2nd XV for Kings or Scottttts or Oakhill and back up to Village club Rugby to ensure a jumper somewhere at the 16s nationals.

I believe when selection NSW and SJRU there were a few that were picked in the starting line up for both and have been split with the drafting system. But is going to a 1sts and 2nds going to make less positions available to clubland. are we going to see a reflection of the 1CCC 3ISA 5CAS and CHS and 13 AAGPS quotas for the opens
or as so frequently happens with Sydney country in the 15s 14 Sydney 8 Country split

It would be great to keep the graduates in Junior Clubland but there comes a time for the chicks to leave the nest. A good ecosystem has and supports Bush Turkeys as well as Eagles. Some poor parents don't know who the Cuckoos are until its too late.

Colts beckons for all of them keeping it fun for all of them and progressively challenging for the upwardly mobile is the task at hand .