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Argentina v Australia, Mendoza 4/10/14

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Yes boyo. I just don't think Phipps is beaten to the ruck.

The first Argentinian player goes off their feet, the second runs past Phipps and just stands there. No other Wallaby players are involved. Horne was close but never joined the ruck as he was standing back to defend.
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
I wasn't inferring whether Phipps was onside or offside, just how a ref' may see a ruck.

From Scott Allen: The laws may say that players must bind on to others with a full arm at a ruck but that’s not how it’s refereed these days. Players in close quarters over the ball in some sort of contact are considered to be forming a ruck.
It doesn’t matter how long they were in contact – that’s not something the laws take into account. As soon as the Puma player made contact with Phipps a ruck formed and the referee was entitled to say ‘you were beaten by the ruck’. Had Phipps been able to play the ball before he was contacted, it should have been play on.
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
only if they made contact over the ball and since phipps was moving back and the argies were coming from behind and since he kicked the ball forward, relative to him, they were not "over" the ball

I think refs are hardwired to think in every situation "How does this look to the RWC ref selectors - what would they think?". Phipps looked badly offside so therefore maximum penalties apply.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
only argue whether it look badly offside but also Owens was having a barry and I suspect his confidence didn't allow him than take the easy option which is appease the IRB ref markers.
He looked jittery and off his game all night.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
The look in John Eales's eyes. Looks like he wanted to spear tackle Bardot (a nation would ahve been grateful for that too). The kiwi fella jsut didn't have any 'effin clue.

Just because everyone seems to have a problem singing our national anthem we should jsut change the music to: Colin Hay, acoustic guitar, down under. sorted :)

Nobody clearly remembers.

Either that or Rugby HQ has snouts patrolling here. On Rugby HQ last night, Nobody discussed the two anthem renditions from post #954 as memorably bad examples to rival Old Mate from Mendoza..
 

Wilson

Phil Kearns (64)
Nobody clearly remembers.

Either that or Rugby HQ has snouts patrolling here. On Rugby HQ last night, Nobody discussed the two anthem renditions from post #954 as memorably bad examples to rival Old Mate from Mendoza..
They were both listed in the fox sports article about the Argentinian take on the anthem.
 

oztimmay

Tony Shaw (54)
Staff member
Nobody clearly remembers.

Either that or Rugby HQ has snouts patrolling here. On Rugby HQ last night, Nobody discussed the two anthem renditions from post #954 as memorably bad examples to rival Old Mate from Mendoza..


I saw that :) I was gonna look up that post and comment as you've already done, but then I got a serious attack of the CBFs.
 

Ulrich

Nev Cottrell (35)
This is not entirely in line with the current trend of this thread, but earlier today I pondered "What would I do if I were to experiment with Aussie talent?"

I'd give Quade Cooper an extended run at 15. He could play first receiver on many occasions much like our Willie and it gives him space - especially if he's granted free roaming. From there he can work his magic whichever way he wishes without his sometimes erratic nature being a problem which it has been at 10 in the past. Admittedly he's stabilised a bit in recent times.

Israel could then move to the wing and Kuridrani obviously still remains at 13 which means he's always there or abouts. Not sure who to pick as the other winger, but those lot could wreak havoc.

That way you can also still accommodate Foley at 10.
 

Wilson

Phil Kearns (64)
This is not entirely in line with the current trend of this thread, but earlier today I pondered "What would I do if I were to experiment with Aussie talent?"

I'd give Quade Cooper an extended run at 15. He could play first receiver on many occasions much like our Willie and it gives him space - especially if he's granted free roaming. From there he can work his magic whichever way he wishes without his sometimes erratic nature being a problem which it has been at 10 in the past. Admittedly he's stabilised a bit in recent times.

Israel could then move to the wing and Kuridrani obviously still remains at 13 which means he's always there or abouts. Not sure who to pick as the other winger, but those lot could wreak havoc.

That way you can also still accommodate Foley at 10.

I've always wondered if cooper might be better off at 15, but I think at this point he's developed at 10 excellently. I'd be more inclined to use Foley at fullback where he can drop in when cooper is out of the play but doesn't have to run things play to play.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
But seriously that would be moving our best 10, whose best strength is his distribution and picking the right option, whilst having a decent running game in order to accommodate our 2nd or 3rd best 10, who started as a 15 and has an inferior passing game, kicking game and distribution.

Foley is not so great that he needs to be accommodated.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
But seriously that would be moving our best 10, whose best strength is his distribution and picking the right option, whilst having a decent running game in order to accommodate our 2nd or 3rd best 10, who started as a 15 and has an inferior passing game, kicking game and distribution.

Foley is not so great that he needs to be accommodated.
It seems to be the Australian way, to a degree. This mentality of "fitting" players in somehow to get them all on the park. Smith and Waugh (Ugh!), "utility" props getting swapped from side to side, playing 6s at lock and so on. Pocock at 8 anyone??
There are exceptions - AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), despite being best at 13, can ably play wing or fullback, but of course the skillset between those positions are not wildly different and he is a very good player. Horne has filled in at wing for the Tahs and Wallabies capably enough, but he wouldn't be if all our best wingers were available and fit. But some backs, like forwards, are tailor made for a position. Kuridrani (at the moment), for example, despite what Bob Dwyer says.
Cooper is a 10. End of story.
Foley is more utility, largely from his 7s days, but I agree probably not so good at another position to justify starting there, such as 15. But a very good bench option, if Cooper is fit, firing and in-form. Behind that Cooper, I think he's currently our next best option. So he goes to the bench in that case.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
If we had one or two injuries at fullback that would be one thing. Until then, no need to discuss.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
You hit a good point Cyclo. So many aus fans seem to find it hard to understand that having good players missing out because they cannot fit in the team is a good thing.
 

Ulrich

Nev Cottrell (35)
It seems to be the Australian way, to a degree. This mentality of "fitting" players in somehow to get them all on the park. Smith and Waugh (Ugh!), "utility" props getting swapped from side to side, playing 6s at lock and so on. Pocock at 8 anyone??
There are exceptions - AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), despite being best at 13, can ably play wing or fullback, but of course the skillset between those positions are not wildly different and he is a very good player. Horne has filled in at wing for the Tahs and Wallabies capably enough, but he wouldn't be if all our best wingers were available and fit. But some backs, like forwards, are tailor made for a position. Kuridrani (at the moment), for example, despite what Bob Dwyer says.
Cooper is a 10. End of story.
Foley is more utility, largely from his 7s days, but I agree probably not so good at another position to justify starting there, such as 15. But a very good bench option, if Cooper is fit, firing and in-form. Behind that Cooper, I think he's currently our next best option. So he goes to the bench in that case.
True, I agree that Australia and its supporters tend to think this way. I'm not Australian though. I have voiced my thoughts on this exact point a year or so ago when the general consensus was including dangerous backline players or moving forwards around to account for your lack of grunt so I completely understand. In a way this quote exemplifies my thoughts:

“Rugby backs can be identified because they generally have clean jerseys and identifiable partings in their hair… come the revolution the backs will be the first to be lined up against the wall and shot for living parasitically off the work of others.”
Peter Fizsimmons

I made the proposition (hypothetically) to encourage debate like this and to get your thoughts on it. You guys know your players and team better than I do so these are just my views as an outsider.

For me, Folau would benefit moving to the wing at this stage of his career and I was thinking that Folau, Cooper and Kuridrani in close proximity for an extended period could result in something really awesome.

As your opposition I don't rate Cooper that highly at 10 but you guys clearly do and I respect that, you get to see more of him than I do.

The last thing Australia need at this stage is moving players around and experimentation. This season I started to feel your team was finally starting to settle in their positions to some degree.

On another note:

Apart from the current off-the-field scandals that's hampering you I think Australia are on the right track but progress seems slow. Part of that is because of the difficult task Link has in managing his players and another in my opinion is the amount of injuries he's had to contend with in his tenure. For some reason players are struggling to find form as well for extended periods now (particularly Genia and Horwill - whom are both world class at their best).

I certainly think the 2014 Wallabies are miles better than the 2013 Wallabies despite the (somewhat controversial) loss to Argentina. As someone else have mentioned as well is that your opposition have not been sitting on their laurels either.

Let's not forget the Springboks would have drawn 6-6 at home to Argentina were it not for an early score by Pienaar in that game and we were lucky to have won away after it looked for all money we were gone. Then you had a brain fart in the last 10 minutes at Newlands, you could have won that game as well. You were 10 minutes away from winning there for the first time since 1992. So the gap is not that great, there certainly is one but it's marginal. You will learn to close out games. History suggests great teams are built on disappointing losses because of the experience gained from them.

There are so many variables for me. I don't know exactly who your best locks would be but I'd be inclined to play Horwill until he bloody finds form (show some backing from the top) and the same for Genia because #9 is undecided but the best #9 of two years ago must surely start playing again consistently, particularly now that QC (Quade Cooper) is back.

What to do at 12 I'm not sure because I don't know who else there is. I think Cummins is a good player for the wing.

As an outsider it's hard for me to name the Wallabies team but it's really easy to name the likely ABs' 15 and the Boks' 15 long before games and even the Pumas are being fairly consistent in selections.

The injuries you guys have had has really made it difficult to establish your best team coupled with a position or two where there's no clear-cut winner.

At the end, once this little hoodoo is over you'll have many options to choose from which will stand Australian rugby in good stead. It is time now to be consistent in selections I think even when there's a poor performer here and there in order to build cohesion and momentum going into next year.
 
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