April Wallaby 30 Man Squad
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Larry Dwyer (12)
Blah.. Deans... Blah Cooper...
I would like to be a Deans fan, but the comments around tries "not being important" got under my skin, especially since the 'Saders of old would pour in 40pts a game. A wicked combination of fast, accurate, be-everywhere forwards getting over the advantage line and a clean straight running backline that would let the ball do the work. They created the definition of counter attack and now we can't get out of our own half let alone over the white line. The missing element being the tactical kicking RD had in Mehrtens & Carter that only Barnes has ever produced in patches in Aus. (the other part of Barnes' patch is that fucking grubber kick when he runs out of ideas.)
QC (Quade Cooper) - Wouldn't pick him for B&I Lions. Agree with the points around him needing time to prove himself at test level and there is no series to allow him the time. I would like to see how QLD goes in their midweek game against the Lions and see him use that as a way to get on the bench if injuries allow. From there he can springboard his supposed great form to come in the coming S15 weeks to lay a claim on The Rugby Championship later this year. Would rather he just went to League. QC (Quade Cooper)'s brain fart highlight reel would be pretty long for any S15 level player let alone Int'l level.
JO'C & Lilo: What happened to the days when a national coach could put in a call and say : "G'day [insert S15 coach], We really need [insert player] to be playing at [insert position] because thats what he's actually good at and that's what his country needs him to be an expert at come the [insert once in a rugby career B&I Lions] series."
While I think that both are viable candidates for the role, the fact we can't get them running in the #10 jersey is embarrassing to our Rugby Cred as a nation. The B&I Lions must be licking their lips thinking that, whoever our starting 10 is, they won't be coming fresh off a gun 12 weeks in the S15 comp.
Briefly on the #10 selection. Foley did himself some wonders with his ball in hand running last weekend, even in a losing performace. That try was electric and showed he could turn on the gas, a good step and effective dummy to score. Is this not the major reason you would select QC (Quade Cooper) at the best of times?
J'OC has had moments of nice work, but then also moments when passes have gone clearly behind a runner etc. Good tackler,.. matters to me. Not sure why then people haven't talked more about To'omua making the jump. (??)
The tahs pack are not selecting themselves and, given our recent discussions around ARU contracts, it worries me how many players with the "top ups" are actually in a place of struggling to make selection in the 30 or even a 35 man squad! Below I've detailed a balanced approach to selecting on form and past performances. There are bolters that always create discussion, but for one reason or another I have gone for them over some more established out of formers. The shock non-selection is TPN. I've always been a big fan, but the guy is not taking care of himself. The concussions (consistent use of his noggin in contact around the knee level) means I don't think he's a long term option. Also, if I work to sacrifice throwing acuracy it would be to include the grunt work he does, but with the selections of some other hard nosed combatants I am taking the risk of leaving him out - with the view that if I were in RD's shoes I would have him spend the time working on adjusting his game style towards lasting 80mins for several games back to back.
1 Benn Robinson
2 Stephen Moore
3 Dan Palmer
4 James Horwill (c)
5 Hugh McMenamin *recovery pending
6 Scott Higginbotham
7 George Smith (spend the money - make it happen)
8 Ben Mowen
9 Will Genia
10 Christian Lealiifano
11 Joe Tomane
12 James O'Connor
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper
14 Digby Ioane
15 Jesse Mogg
16 James Hanson
17 Ben Alexander
18 Sitaleki Timani
19 Fotu Auelua
20 Nic White
21 Bernard Foley
22 Ben Tapuai
23 Scott Sio
24 Sekope Kepu
25 Peter Kimlin
26 Liam Gill
27 Scott Higginbotham
28 Matt To'omua
29 Pat McCabe
30 Israel Folau
Consider unlucky (AKA players I want there to run opposition so they can continue to develop):
31 Luke Jones
32 Cadeyrn Neville
33 Hugh Pyle
34 Ed Quirk
35 Dom Shipperly
36 Scott Fardy
37 Michael Hooper
38 Wycliff Palu (Fotu is getting better yards in contact - don't need two of the same, especially if being used as an impact sub or 30min starter)
Not considered/Wishlist:
TPN (will surely be injured by then)
David Pocock
Kyle Godwin (would have him in there if eligible? 2 yrs to go?)
Henry Speight (not eligible yet, but better than Tomane)
Nick Cummins (return from injury would get him in the squad in front of Shipperly)
Kurtley Beale (Rehab/Mungoitis)
Jason Woodward (kiwi, we'll have to keep him 3 yrs and then explain to Steve Hansen how Aussie he has become)
QC (Quade Cooper) (already addressed)
Berrick Barnes (injured/made of glass/is not the future)
I would like to be a Deans fan, but the comments around tries "not being important" got under my skin, especially since the 'Saders of old would pour in 40pts a game. A wicked combination of fast, accurate, be-everywhere forwards getting over the advantage line and a clean straight running backline that would let the ball do the work. They created the definition of counter attack and now we can't get out of our own half let alone over the white line. The missing element being the tactical kicking RD had in Mehrtens & Carter that only Barnes has ever produced in patches in Aus. (the other part of Barnes' patch is that fucking grubber kick when he runs out of ideas.)
QC (Quade Cooper) - Wouldn't pick him for B&I Lions. Agree with the points around him needing time to prove himself at test level and there is no series to allow him the time. I would like to see how QLD goes in their midweek game against the Lions and see him use that as a way to get on the bench if injuries allow. From there he can springboard his supposed great form to come in the coming S15 weeks to lay a claim on The Rugby Championship later this year. Would rather he just went to League. QC (Quade Cooper)'s brain fart highlight reel would be pretty long for any S15 level player let alone Int'l level.
JO'C & Lilo: What happened to the days when a national coach could put in a call and say : "G'day [insert S15 coach], We really need [insert player] to be playing at [insert position] because thats what he's actually good at and that's what his country needs him to be an expert at come the [insert once in a rugby career B&I Lions] series."
While I think that both are viable candidates for the role, the fact we can't get them running in the #10 jersey is embarrassing to our Rugby Cred as a nation. The B&I Lions must be licking their lips thinking that, whoever our starting 10 is, they won't be coming fresh off a gun 12 weeks in the S15 comp.
Briefly on the #10 selection. Foley did himself some wonders with his ball in hand running last weekend, even in a losing performace. That try was electric and showed he could turn on the gas, a good step and effective dummy to score. Is this not the major reason you would select QC (Quade Cooper) at the best of times?
J'OC has had moments of nice work, but then also moments when passes have gone clearly behind a runner etc. Good tackler,.. matters to me. Not sure why then people haven't talked more about To'omua making the jump. (??)
The tahs pack are not selecting themselves and, given our recent discussions around ARU contracts, it worries me how many players with the "top ups" are actually in a place of struggling to make selection in the 30 or even a 35 man squad! Below I've detailed a balanced approach to selecting on form and past performances. There are bolters that always create discussion, but for one reason or another I have gone for them over some more established out of formers. The shock non-selection is TPN. I've always been a big fan, but the guy is not taking care of himself. The concussions (consistent use of his noggin in contact around the knee level) means I don't think he's a long term option. Also, if I work to sacrifice throwing acuracy it would be to include the grunt work he does, but with the selections of some other hard nosed combatants I am taking the risk of leaving him out - with the view that if I were in RD's shoes I would have him spend the time working on adjusting his game style towards lasting 80mins for several games back to back.
1 Benn Robinson
2 Stephen Moore
3 Dan Palmer
4 James Horwill (c)
5 Hugh McMenamin *recovery pending
6 Scott Higginbotham
7 George Smith (spend the money - make it happen)
8 Ben Mowen
9 Will Genia
10 Christian Lealiifano
11 Joe Tomane
12 James O'Connor
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper
14 Digby Ioane
15 Jesse Mogg
16 James Hanson
17 Ben Alexander
18 Sitaleki Timani
19 Fotu Auelua
20 Nic White
21 Bernard Foley
22 Ben Tapuai
23 Scott Sio
24 Sekope Kepu
25 Peter Kimlin
26 Liam Gill
27 Scott Higginbotham
28 Matt To'omua
29 Pat McCabe
30 Israel Folau
Consider unlucky (AKA players I want there to run opposition so they can continue to develop):
31 Luke Jones
32 Cadeyrn Neville
33 Hugh Pyle
34 Ed Quirk
35 Dom Shipperly
36 Scott Fardy
37 Michael Hooper
38 Wycliff Palu (Fotu is getting better yards in contact - don't need two of the same, especially if being used as an impact sub or 30min starter)
Not considered/Wishlist:
TPN (will surely be injured by then)
David Pocock
Kyle Godwin (would have him in there if eligible? 2 yrs to go?)
Henry Speight (not eligible yet, but better than Tomane)
Nick Cummins (return from injury would get him in the squad in front of Shipperly)
Kurtley Beale (Rehab/Mungoitis)
Jason Woodward (kiwi, we'll have to keep him 3 yrs and then explain to Steve Hansen how Aussie he has become)
QC (Quade Cooper) (already addressed)
Berrick Barnes (injured/made of glass/is not the future)
USARugger
John Thornett (49)
Mate I can't always properly infer your tone through text! That was the point of my response though, it's all literal bullshit and may turn me off from the rugby press entirely until this tour blows over. Much longer than that if we lose.
If AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) gets moved from 13 to 15 again I will literally have an aneurysm. What else does he need to do to prove that not only does he play much better at 13, he is our best test 13.
For what it's worth I think Lilo looks even better at 12 than he did at 10 last year, just looks more comfortable and I think the extra space suits him very well. He's a good defender and runs well in traffic too so he has the qualities you want.
QC (Quade Cooper)'s biggest strength has and always will be his passing.
Dumbledore
Dick Tooth (41)
Hooper was nigh on the best player in the world last year and you don't even want him in the squad? Professional sport is cruel.
In one of his early tests when he was picked at fullback I remember him having a terrible game and getting tortured under high balls and the ABs attack.
It's such ancient history though, it can hardly be counted any more.
Sir Arthur Higgins
Dick Tooth (41)
ok - i agree with your point that he can't execute the game plan, but i don't think his missed tackles, dropped catches, poor skills under the highball, and errant passes were a result of a game plan he couldn't execute.
and to the bold bit above - that's probably my point. he's not defensive and he's not a great tactical kicker. i dont understand how he could be expected to play at test level, let a lone lions test level effectively when he can't do that. test rugby is too fast, too skilled and too demanding to allow a 10 to rotate back to 15 on defense, to fall off tackles or not property stick them.
I think he's a great super rugby player, but he wouldn't be in my test team (maybe off the bench). he is carlos spencer to me completely, but without carlos' defensive abilities. you will pick carlos when merhtens and carter aren't available. otherwise you won't.
the problem for aussie is that we don't have a carter or a merthens....but there are other alternatives that i think are more stable and well rounded 10s.
Sir Arthur Higgins
Dick Tooth (41)
agree re JOC (James O'Connor) - he isn't playing enough at 10 for him to be the contender. he needs to play there the rest of the time for the rebels and should've been there the past few weeks instead of roberts.
I totally agree re JOC (James O'Connor), beale and barnes. for me - the fly half options really are To'omua, Lilo and probably 3rd QC (Quade Cooper)/JOC (James O'Connor).
JOC (James O'Connor) was really good on the end of year tour when he played 10. its unfortunate he had so much time away from the game and is only now getting back to 10 for the rebels.
as i said above - i just don't think QC (Quade Cooper) is 10 lions test 10 material.
ok if you think he just doesnt work to deans' game plan, but he works to reds super rugby 2011 game plan and that will not work against the lions or at test rugby in general....it doesnt really even work in super rugby now that people figured him out.
Sir Arthur Higgins
Dick Tooth (41)
it is a tough topic, because i think ultimately, like deans, quade is a deeply divisive figure in aussie rugby....and here we have essentially have a thread that deals with both of them...its dangerous!
I had a look at a few season stats for the potential #8 and #6 candidates-
Mowen - 560 minutes played. 48 runs, 8 tackles bust, 2 offloads, 2 linebreaks. 50 tackles, 10 missed (83%). 6 errors, 28 lineout takes.
Higginbotham - 539 minutes played. 39 runs, 6 tackles bust, 4 offloads, 3 linebreaks. 65 tackles, 10 missed (86%). 1 error, 26 lineout takes.
MMM - 427 minutes played. 62 runs, 7 tackles bust, 3 offloads, 1 linebreak. 33 tackles, 8 missed (80%). 29 lineout takes, 6 errors.
Auleau - 297 minutes played. 41 runs, 7 tackles bust, 3 offloads. 34 tackles, 5 missed (87%). 0 errors, 7 lineout takes.
Palu - 140 minutes played. 24 runs, 1 tackle bust, 4 offloads, 1 linebreak. 22 tackles, 5 missed (81%). 2 errors, 2 lineout takes.
In my eyes Palu is still our best #8, for the fact that everyone seems to overlook- his work rate. In gold it is consistently high (on the EOYT he lead the forwards in runs for every game he played, and was second in tackles made to Hooper in every game).
When it comes to #6, in my eyes it is a three-way race between Mowen, MMM and Higgers. Each offers different things. MMM can also play in the row.
Ultimately it comes down to balance, and I'm not sure how you would play it. We certainly have the quality there though, which is nice.
.
Mowen - 560 minutes played. 48 runs, 8 tackles bust, 2 offloads, 2 linebreaks. 50 tackles, 10 missed (83%). 6 errors, 28 lineout takes.
Higginbotham - 539 minutes played. 39 runs, 6 tackles bust, 4 offloads, 3 linebreaks. 65 tackles, 10 missed (86%). 1 error, 26 lineout takes.
MMM - 427 minutes played. 62 runs, 7 tackles bust, 3 offloads, 1 linebreak. 33 tackles, 8 missed (80%). 29 lineout takes, 6 errors.
Auleau - 297 minutes played. 41 runs, 7 tackles bust, 3 offloads. 34 tackles, 5 missed (87%). 0 errors, 7 lineout takes.
Palu - 140 minutes played. 24 runs, 1 tackle bust, 4 offloads, 1 linebreak. 22 tackles, 5 missed (81%). 2 errors, 2 lineout takes.
In my eyes Palu is still our best #8, for the fact that everyone seems to overlook- his work rate. In gold it is consistently high (on the EOYT he lead the forwards in runs for every game he played, and was second in tackles made to Hooper in every game).
When it comes to #6, in my eyes it is a three-way race between Mowen, MMM and Higgers. Each offers different things. MMM can also play in the row.
Ultimately it comes down to balance, and I'm not sure how you would play it. We certainly have the quality there though, which is nice.
.
Why is Lilo a better option at 10 than JOC (James O'Connor) based on playing there this season? Lilo has played one game at 10 and his team, coming first on the table drew with the new team coming second last.
If we're looking at flyhalf options purely on who is playing there in Super Rugby (which I don't agree with), then surely Foley is right up there. He's played every game there and has been a standout in a team that hasn't been doing that well (3 wins, 4 losses).
Taking some attacking stats from Foxsports Fantasy Rugby (which I completely agree are by no means entirely accurate)
Foley has 3 tries (T), 21 tackle busts (TB), 8 line breaks (LB), 5 line break creates (LBC)
Cooper has 1T, 14TB, 1LB, 7LBC
O'Connor has 0T, 17TB, 2LB, 4LBC
To'omua has 1T, 6TB, 1LB, 5LBC
Lealiifano has 1T, 7TB, 2LB, 2LBC
Now I don't think Foley should be playing 10 against the Lions. I certainly don't think there is a compelling case that he should be considered at all behind To'omua though.
One stat I didn't include is offloads. Quade Cooper is well ahead of every one else on this list in offloads.
True, but it also shows he doesn't need a huge amount of minutes under his belt to put in good performances.
If he is fit and able, he starts at 8 in my team.
.
hazzaj
Alfred Walker (16)
1.Robinson 2. Moore 3. Slipper
4.Timani 5. Horwill (c)
6. Hooper 8.Higginbotham 7.Gill
9. Genia (vc)
11.Ioane 10. JOC (James O'Connor) 12.McCabe/Horne 13. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). 14 Mitchell
15. Falou/Mogg/Beale
16. Alexander (could easily be the number 1)
17. Palmer
18. TPN
19. MMM
20. Simmons
21. G Smith (all bs aside he should number 6, but I doubt he'll play)
22. Quirk
23. White
24. Mckibbin
25. Foley
26. Lilo
27. Shipperly/Mafi
28.-30. taken from places not assured in starting 15.
Incumbency will be high for this team as Deans has said experience is needed against the Lions. He has also said he is shying away from 'Blooding' players in this series.
I must be the only one not expecting drastic changes, this is the team that I would pick If I was in Deans' position. It wont make everyone happy but with the situation and his decision not to go with Cooper, there are a few backs positions out there that people will be fighting for.
Putting Cooper at 10 though makes sense, its very frustrating not having him there. His link up play with Genia is excellent as they have been playing rugby since highschool together. It also allows JOC (James O'Connor) to be a very strong number 15, his counter attack and reading of the game is getting better and better each year. Also he can switch it up with Cooper at no.10 if he need to.
4.Timani 5. Horwill (c)
6. Hooper 8.Higginbotham 7.Gill
9. Genia (vc)
11.Ioane 10. JOC (James O'Connor) 12.McCabe/Horne 13. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). 14 Mitchell
15. Falou/Mogg/Beale
16. Alexander (could easily be the number 1)
17. Palmer
18. TPN
19. MMM
20. Simmons
21. G Smith (all bs aside he should number 6, but I doubt he'll play)
22. Quirk
23. White
24. Mckibbin
25. Foley
26. Lilo
27. Shipperly/Mafi
28.-30. taken from places not assured in starting 15.
Incumbency will be high for this team as Deans has said experience is needed against the Lions. He has also said he is shying away from 'Blooding' players in this series.
I must be the only one not expecting drastic changes, this is the team that I would pick If I was in Deans' position. It wont make everyone happy but with the situation and his decision not to go with Cooper, there are a few backs positions out there that people will be fighting for.
Putting Cooper at 10 though makes sense, its very frustrating not having him there. His link up play with Genia is excellent as they have been playing rugby since highschool together. It also allows JOC (James O'Connor) to be a very strong number 15, his counter attack and reading of the game is getting better and better each year. Also he can switch it up with Cooper at no.10 if he need to.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
barbarian
Eden Park - I was there but I'm not sure when. Completely awful.
My impression, without coming up with specific examples, is that he has never played particularly well against NZ - all 5 games he has played against them we have lost; he has scored only 3 points against them, and in some of those games he has been the/a goal kicker.
Edit: Braveheart81 says fullback - he's only played against the darkness at 15 once - 19.9.2009, Wellington
so that's twice
Eden Park - I was there but I'm not sure when. Completely awful.
My impression, without coming up with specific examples, is that he has never played particularly well against NZ - all 5 games he has played against them we have lost; he has scored only 3 points against them, and in some of those games he has been the/a goal kicker.
Edit: Braveheart81 says fullback - he's only played against the darkness at 15 once - 19.9.2009, Wellington
so that's twice
Well a certain conversion kicked from the sideline in Honkers negates a few of those points. Haha, BH beat me to it.
I agree he has never really shone against the ABs, but who of the current crop really has? Sita Timani, Digby, KB (Kurtley Beale), Genia, and that's about it!
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
Based on those numbers, I would take Auleau every day of the week.
Sir Arthur Higgins
Dick Tooth (41)
If foley had a bit more experience, i would agree with you that his name should be up there. but it is a bit much to throw him in the lions den with so little super rugby experience. he played great though the last few weeks.
Lilo and JOC (James O'Connor) - neither have played much there this year -both have played there once this year and both had patchy games when they did.
I am basing it more off their respective play at 12 and 15 this year.
Lilo has been excellent and he was superb when given more time at 10 last year and JOC (James O'Connor) is also a great 10 when given more time. Overall though, i feel lilo has the better skill set for a 10.
comparing the two on this years form at 10 is hard if not impossible so i'm looking on form outside of fly half and form at fly half in the past.
10 is, in my opinion, the hardest position to solve for the lions. i think there could be standout options if they played there regularly...but they haven't been so it certainly doesnt help the choice.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Sorry - ESPNScrum had limited the search to games in NZ without me realising - FB on 3 occasions 22.8.2009, 19.9.2009 and 31.10.2009.
10 games for 2 tries against NZ - 10% winning ratio
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