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James Buchanan
Trevor Allan (34)
Lee Grant said:
Well, the AFL's expansions into GC and Western Sydney could be massive finance draining flops. But I follow your points.
I think our differences of opinion derive largely from you approaching it from a structural level, me from an idealistic level.
I would contend that AFL is a threat to Rugby in the way that Soccer is a threat to Rugby. Both may poach from the player base, but fundamentally they attract interest/crowds for different reasons and to some level attract a different player type. I base this assertion from the time I took a dyed in the wool AFL supporter to his first game of Rugby a year or so ago, when the Wallabies were playing down here, and despite having to explain the game to him every five seconds, he was enraptured by the sheer difference in physicality in the contest compared to AFL - how hard the tackles were and the grunt in the tight (even if it has been neutered these days).
While this is a position from an outsider to the heartbeat of the Union/League divide, I would further contend that the growth of AFL may prompt a convergence of the Union and League player bases. Ultimately, I think that will work against league. Union's position as the 'world game' for physical ball sports grants it relative immunity to the encroachments of other codes, League has no such protection and I think (over the very long term) will gradually find itself further marginalised. This is already starting to happen with more kids deciding to stick with the Rugby they played at school and League converts happening more and more. The high profile nature of league players seeking rich overseas contracts is prompting it further, as more kids are starting to become aware that there are avenues to make money via their rugby.
On top of that, the globalised workplace is making Rugby a much more desirable option. Even if they are not going to make any more money playing Union in some 3rd string club in Europe that they would playing league, kids are going to start considering it as an option simply because it offers them an easy way to see the world. I am reminded of an interview I saw recently with some members of the Kangaroos all seeming very wide eyed and amazed in Paris, gushing about the 'culture' that they were being exposed to. Its this sort of thing which makes kids consider options out in the world and of AFL, League and Rugby, only Rugby really gives them the opportunity to pursue this. There are just so many systemic advantages that Rugby offers, it just needs them to be promoted. I would say it is, because the indicators from the schoolboy level particularly are very promising. This is part is to do with grass roots level, when I look at the organisation around my school team now, its of a level that puts to shame the oranges and bbq approach that they took in my day.
But to address the initiator of this conversation, as you have suggested AFL is cashed up, aggressive and putting into place plays that will only strengthen their brand. AFL is going no-where. So, I would suggest its not going to be the one to give in any competition between the codes. The one that I see as weak is League. Its limited international profile restricts it and its general similarity to Rugby means that there is an easier transfer of appreciation and players across. This isn't something that's going to happen immediately, but I would not be surprised in 50-100 years to see Rugby and League over here in the same position that they are in the UK now.
James Buchanan
Trevor Allan (34)
cheezel said:
I agree with all your points to some extent. Although there are qualifiers to what you say. Part of AFL's indoctrination down here is because it is the local game. People have local teams that they identify with and love passionately. Rugby has never been able to break into the hearts of Melbournites because of this. The ARC was a good step but at the same time it was the same as VFL down here, a second string competition that drew only the real die hards to the game. With a Super Rugby team in place, there is now an option to see world class 'club' competition and enough money behind it to achieve the necessary promotion to make Victorians really identify with the team.
The population of women at games is an astute observation, but in my experience it isn't one that is contrary to Rugby. There's always been a decent number of girls at most schoolboy and club games that I've been involved with. While many of these are family and WAGs, they do seem to enjoy the game and get into supporting the team. I've never been able to reconcile similar appreciation with League, probably because (as a girl recently complained to me about) of the stop/start nature of the game; particularly the consistent 'running at' players. At the risk of sounding sexist, this is contrary to the general female psyche. Rugby gets around this because of the consistent attempts to evade players, even if the up front biff is still there. This is also supported by the presence of women's rugby - most clubs have a women's team, or they did in my day; I can't think of any league competition for women down here. So, I guess I'd like to think that Rugby, if marketed well could tap into the sporting enthusiasm that many girls do have down here.
Biffo
Ken Catchpole (46)
PaarlBok said:
PB, did you really expect Australia and New Zealand to roll over, against their own interests, to solve a domestic political problem in RSA?
SARU created the political problem by promising something beyond its capacity to deliver. The solution to that domestic problem lies within RSA, not in New Zealand and Australia.
BTW, chalk up yet another win for John O'Neill :thumb
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
PaarlBok said:
Paarl you're overreacting.
The Lions dropping out of the Super 14 and the Kings entering with a fresh setup could be the best thing for SA rugby.
I would suggest two CC team dropping out is also a good thing. Better competition becuase the teams will attract the best players.
I really think you're upset because you think you are supposed to be.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Ja enjoy O'Neils win, thing is you cant get your own porovincial competition going. Show there are not enough supporters or rugby culture in Aus. The only way to get the game going there is due to the TV audiense in SA.Biffo said:
More super rugby wont solve it, it lower the standard of the competition.
with regards the poll, just for he sake of most numbe of players off contract (again) it has to be the Reds:
Reds: Rodney Davies, Robert Simmons, James Hanson, Quade Cooper, Ben Lucas, Poutasi Vaiofiso Tuasivi Luafutu, Brando Vaalu, Saia Fainga'a, Anthony Fainga'a, Jack Kennedy, Scott Higginbotham, Laurie Weeks, Dayna Edwards, Ezra Taylor, Peter Hynes, Morgan Turinui, Adam Byrnes, Sean Hardman,Van Humphries, Blair Connor
Tahs: Berrick Barnes, Chris Thompson,Benn Robinson, Daniel Halangahu, Tom Carter, Cam Jowitt, Wycliffe Palu, Adam Freier, Scott Fava, Nemani Nadolo
Brumbies: Afusipa Taumoepeau, Matt To'omua, Alifeleti Mafi, Christian Lealiifano, Sitaleki Timani,Peter Kimlin, Francis Fainifo, Ben Hand, Patrick Phibbs, Stephen Hoiles, Mark Chisholm, Stirling Mortlock, Jack Vanderglas, Andrew Smith
4s: Ben Whittaker, Dane Haylett-Petty, David Pocock, Josh Tatupu, Kieran Longbottom, Cameron Shepherd, Haig Sare, Chris O'Young, Sam Harris , Nathan Sharpe, Luke Jones, Mark Swanepoel.
Remebering its not just the Melbourne team that will be dping all the recruiting. Just say the Reds lose Hynes, they'll be on the hunt for another outside back etc.
Reds: Rodney Davies, Robert Simmons, James Hanson, Quade Cooper, Ben Lucas, Poutasi Vaiofiso Tuasivi Luafutu, Brando Vaalu, Saia Fainga'a, Anthony Fainga'a, Jack Kennedy, Scott Higginbotham, Laurie Weeks, Dayna Edwards, Ezra Taylor, Peter Hynes, Morgan Turinui, Adam Byrnes, Sean Hardman,Van Humphries, Blair Connor
Tahs: Berrick Barnes, Chris Thompson,Benn Robinson, Daniel Halangahu, Tom Carter, Cam Jowitt, Wycliffe Palu, Adam Freier, Scott Fava, Nemani Nadolo
Brumbies: Afusipa Taumoepeau, Matt To'omua, Alifeleti Mafi, Christian Lealiifano, Sitaleki Timani,Peter Kimlin, Francis Fainifo, Ben Hand, Patrick Phibbs, Stephen Hoiles, Mark Chisholm, Stirling Mortlock, Jack Vanderglas, Andrew Smith
4s: Ben Whittaker, Dane Haylett-Petty, David Pocock, Josh Tatupu, Kieran Longbottom, Cameron Shepherd, Haig Sare, Chris O'Young, Sam Harris , Nathan Sharpe, Luke Jones, Mark Swanepoel.
Remebering its not just the Melbourne team that will be dping all the recruiting. Just say the Reds lose Hynes, they'll be on the hunt for another outside back etc.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Ag dont talk kak, do you have any idea of the financial complication for teams dropping in the CC divisions?Blue said:
Do you have any idea of the financial complications for our S14 francise if they drop from the S14 competition?
The amount of young and contracted players they will loose?
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
PaarlBok said:
Really? So now it's the Super 14's duty to see to the survival of a province. Funny that. Because you say that's the problem you have with Melbourne. Can't have your potjiekos and eat it boet.
Maybe SA rugby can't and shouldn't sustain that many teams. Looks to me like the market is saying something and SARU should listen.
Super 15 is a bad idea. Super 15 with a sixth, underperforming SA team is stupid.
The Lions had their chance. For years they haven't taken it. Why should SANZAR and SARU keep feeding them? Off with their heads.
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
PaarlBok said:
Exactly which players did the Kings have?
Are you actually telling me they would have filled a Super 14 quality team with players from EP and Border? Rubbish.
Paarl let me enlighten you about something. I would give the top 4 club teams in Sydney to odds to beat EP, Border, and a few other small SA provinces. In fact, Randwick and Uni will quite likely beat them, and upwards of 60% of their players have no S14 contract.
There are far less players here but don't underestimate the youngsters running around in the club comps. There aren't many, but there are some good ones.
I would give a team of non-contract Sydney an equal chance to beat a team comprising of the Kings region players with no imports.
Melbourne has no players becuase they have no rugby team. Doh.
To suggest the Kings would have rolled out a team that would be competitive from local stocks is total bullshit. They would have carted in a boatload of players. You know it.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Where's the popcorn when you need it?
But seriously folks:
ARU wants foreign players for Melbourne
November 12, 2009 - 6:28AM
The ARU will lobby for concessions to allow Melbourne to recruit as many as 10 foreign players for the city’s entry into an expanded Super 15 rugby competition in 2011.
The concessions would help prevent Australia’s four established franchises from being depleted like the Queensland Reds were following player raids by the Western Force before their inclusion in the 2006 tournament.
Ending months of uncertainty, independent arbitrators yesterday granted Melbourne the 15th licence ahead of South Africa’s Southern Kings.
The decision came as a ‘‘big relief’’ to ARU chief John O’Neill and sparked great excitement in Australian rugby ranks.
‘‘This is a vote for commonsense,’’ O’Neill told reporters in Dublin, ahead of Australia’s grand slam Test with Ireland on Sunday.
Victorian Rugby Union president Gary Gray said the decision would provide a huge boost to rugby in Victoria with a Super rugby team providing a direct pathway to top level rugby for the first time.
‘‘At the end of the day, we (Victorian rugby) are 100 year’s old and we’ve waited 100 years for this day,’’ Gray said. ‘‘This is the greatest opportunity for Victorian and Australian rugby to further develop so many people have wanted this and have now been rewarded.’’
Gray said the local rugby community was strong enough to support the team, which he expected would be competitive from the start. The VRU is aligned with consortium that is interested in investing in the new team.
Melbourne’s success comes after it was overlooked in 2004 when the ARU opted to place its fourth Super rugby team in Perth, giving birth to the Western Force when the competition was expanded to the Super 14 in 2006.
Melbourne had been the favourite to secure the Super 15 franchise, given that the team would play within the Australian conference when the competition was revamped in 2011.
The ARU’s next step would now be to determined an ownership structure for the team.
The initial bidding process fell apart when rival interests could not work together and the ARU, which itself had been accused of attempting to hijack the process, appointing an advisor to establish a sutiable private ownership and investment model.
A decision is expected to be announced within coming weeks.
The Super 15 will comprise five teams from each of Australia, South Africa and New Zealand in a new-look conference-style format, with the competition running for 19 weeks virtually simultaneously to the NRL and AFL seasons.
Significantly, because of the new home-and-away system, there will be 20 all-Australian local derbies each season.Wallabies coach Robbie Deans and captain Rocky Elsom both welcomed Melbourne’s successful bid - which ultimately edged out the Eastern Cape hopefuls because ‘‘the difference in broadcasting revenue between having a team in Melbourne versus having a team in Port Elizabeth was between a $15 million and $20 million cost to SANZAR’’, according to O’Neill.
‘‘It can’t help but help Australian rugby. It’s a fantastic outcome. The profile of the game will just escalate,’’ Deans said.‘‘You’ve got rugby across the calendar year. You’ve got not only rugby, but local derbies, domestic rugby.
‘‘Those two points alone are enormous. Easily said, but huge value.
‘‘It’s more top-end rugby and the reality is that players tend to be as good as the competitions they come out of and we’ve now got a top-end competition that will run from the start of the year to the finish.
‘‘You can’t better that to put us on a level pegging.’’
Elsom said: ‘‘It’s a big win for all parties. It’s really important to have another team and I can’t see too many down points of having a team in Melbourne.’’
Australia wasn’t represented in this year’s Super 14 finals, but O’Neill and ARU high-performance unit manager David Nucifora are confident the world’s third-ranked rugby nation has the necessary player resources for a fifth franchise, in addition to the NSW Waratahs, ACT Brumbies, the Reds and the Force.
‘‘There’s about 100 Australian players playing offshore in the northern hemisphere at the moment, so that’s quite a few,’’ Nucifora said.O’Neill said the proposed concessions - which the ARU board has yet to approve - centre on granting Melbourne an increase in the number of foreign players on their books.
Franchises are currently allowed a maximum of two overseas imports, but O’Neill is proposing that Melbourne’s anticipated 30-man squad be permitted ‘‘say up to 10 (foreigners) initially with that being phased out over an agreed period’’.
‘‘It would only be a concession for Melbourne and only in the start-up phase,’’ he said.‘‘The idea is to populate this franchise with Australian players and to give the national team, the national coach and selectors a much bigger talent pool from which to choose the Wallabies.
‘‘We could give preference to some Argentinean players - because we are keen to get Argentina into the Four Nations sooner rather than later - and Pacific Island players.
‘‘So what we’re trying to do is set in place a policy framework that will lessen the impact on the poaching of players from other franchises.
‘‘The only note of reality that you’ve got to inject into that is that there are players coming off contract in 2010 and we will be looking to protect the existing franchises as much as we can.
‘‘But, equally, players who are coming off contract will be entitled to look around.’’
O’Neill anticipates Melbourne will be fully functional, with a chief executive and coach in place, by March next year.
AAP and Stathi Paxinos
But seriously folks:
ARU wants foreign players for Melbourne
November 12, 2009 - 6:28AM
The ARU will lobby for concessions to allow Melbourne to recruit as many as 10 foreign players for the city’s entry into an expanded Super 15 rugby competition in 2011.
The concessions would help prevent Australia’s four established franchises from being depleted like the Queensland Reds were following player raids by the Western Force before their inclusion in the 2006 tournament.
Ending months of uncertainty, independent arbitrators yesterday granted Melbourne the 15th licence ahead of South Africa’s Southern Kings.
The decision came as a ‘‘big relief’’ to ARU chief John O’Neill and sparked great excitement in Australian rugby ranks.
‘‘This is a vote for commonsense,’’ O’Neill told reporters in Dublin, ahead of Australia’s grand slam Test with Ireland on Sunday.
Victorian Rugby Union president Gary Gray said the decision would provide a huge boost to rugby in Victoria with a Super rugby team providing a direct pathway to top level rugby for the first time.
‘‘At the end of the day, we (Victorian rugby) are 100 year’s old and we’ve waited 100 years for this day,’’ Gray said. ‘‘This is the greatest opportunity for Victorian and Australian rugby to further develop so many people have wanted this and have now been rewarded.’’
Gray said the local rugby community was strong enough to support the team, which he expected would be competitive from the start. The VRU is aligned with consortium that is interested in investing in the new team.
Melbourne’s success comes after it was overlooked in 2004 when the ARU opted to place its fourth Super rugby team in Perth, giving birth to the Western Force when the competition was expanded to the Super 14 in 2006.
Melbourne had been the favourite to secure the Super 15 franchise, given that the team would play within the Australian conference when the competition was revamped in 2011.
The ARU’s next step would now be to determined an ownership structure for the team.
The initial bidding process fell apart when rival interests could not work together and the ARU, which itself had been accused of attempting to hijack the process, appointing an advisor to establish a sutiable private ownership and investment model.
A decision is expected to be announced within coming weeks.
The Super 15 will comprise five teams from each of Australia, South Africa and New Zealand in a new-look conference-style format, with the competition running for 19 weeks virtually simultaneously to the NRL and AFL seasons.
Significantly, because of the new home-and-away system, there will be 20 all-Australian local derbies each season.Wallabies coach Robbie Deans and captain Rocky Elsom both welcomed Melbourne’s successful bid - which ultimately edged out the Eastern Cape hopefuls because ‘‘the difference in broadcasting revenue between having a team in Melbourne versus having a team in Port Elizabeth was between a $15 million and $20 million cost to SANZAR’’, according to O’Neill.
‘‘It can’t help but help Australian rugby. It’s a fantastic outcome. The profile of the game will just escalate,’’ Deans said.‘‘You’ve got rugby across the calendar year. You’ve got not only rugby, but local derbies, domestic rugby.
‘‘Those two points alone are enormous. Easily said, but huge value.
‘‘It’s more top-end rugby and the reality is that players tend to be as good as the competitions they come out of and we’ve now got a top-end competition that will run from the start of the year to the finish.
‘‘You can’t better that to put us on a level pegging.’’
Elsom said: ‘‘It’s a big win for all parties. It’s really important to have another team and I can’t see too many down points of having a team in Melbourne.’’
Australia wasn’t represented in this year’s Super 14 finals, but O’Neill and ARU high-performance unit manager David Nucifora are confident the world’s third-ranked rugby nation has the necessary player resources for a fifth franchise, in addition to the NSW Waratahs, ACT Brumbies, the Reds and the Force.
‘‘There’s about 100 Australian players playing offshore in the northern hemisphere at the moment, so that’s quite a few,’’ Nucifora said.O’Neill said the proposed concessions - which the ARU board has yet to approve - centre on granting Melbourne an increase in the number of foreign players on their books.
Franchises are currently allowed a maximum of two overseas imports, but O’Neill is proposing that Melbourne’s anticipated 30-man squad be permitted ‘‘say up to 10 (foreigners) initially with that being phased out over an agreed period’’.
‘‘It would only be a concession for Melbourne and only in the start-up phase,’’ he said.‘‘The idea is to populate this franchise with Australian players and to give the national team, the national coach and selectors a much bigger talent pool from which to choose the Wallabies.
‘‘We could give preference to some Argentinean players - because we are keen to get Argentina into the Four Nations sooner rather than later - and Pacific Island players.
‘‘So what we’re trying to do is set in place a policy framework that will lessen the impact on the poaching of players from other franchises.
‘‘The only note of reality that you’ve got to inject into that is that there are players coming off contract in 2010 and we will be looking to protect the existing franchises as much as we can.
‘‘But, equally, players who are coming off contract will be entitled to look around.’’
O’Neill anticipates Melbourne will be fully functional, with a chief executive and coach in place, by March next year.
AAP and Stathi Paxinos
Biffo
Ken Catchpole (46)
Melbourne
From theage.com.au:
"Melbourne has been saying it for years and now it's been confirmed - Melbourne is the best sporting city in the world.
Melbourne got the nod ahead of Berlin and Doha at the SportBusiness Sports Event Management Awards, held at Lord's Cricket Ground in London on Thursday."
From theage.com.au:
"Melbourne has been saying it for years and now it's been confirmed - Melbourne is the best sporting city in the world.
Melbourne got the nod ahead of Berlin and Doha at the SportBusiness Sports Event Management Awards, held at Lord's Cricket Ground in London on Thursday."
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Biff you dont want to explain from the start. It have nothing to do with the current contracted players at the Kings, all to do with player stock not contracted to S14 franchises in SA. Pretty sure we have many more then Aus at this very moment.Biffo said:
So lets just leave it and move on. Oom Paarl is already over it.
Thanks for the warning. I shall stay away from PR for a while.
T
TOCC
Guest
the right decision was made, including the kings in the australian conference would have just been plain stupid
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