Analyzing the way the game is refereed

[naza]

Naza - where have you been? I don't even think you were banned?

Not for lack of trying...

Been getting my shit together mate. Don't want to get too deep and meaningful but yeah...sometimes you just have to take stock and look at how you're travelling in life, whether you're hitting your goals or whether you're wasting too much time on distractions and trivial bullshit (watching sport, pissing up, bludging on the internet).

 

[Gagger]

So clearly you did that and then thought "fuck, I haven't spent enough time on G&GR"

 

[naza]

So clearly you did that and then thought "fuck, I haven't spent enough time on G&GR"

There are a lot of people on here still in need of rugby education. Its really a kind of community service that I provide. I'm a giver.

 

[maxdacat]

Ipoint at all.

And FWIW, I don't think 9 try test matches are good matches.

What's wrong with 9 tries in a test match?

 

[naza]

What's wrong with 9 tries in a test match?

I think Major Ragerly is suggesting that tests are supposed to be an epic battle, a tightly fought uncompromising arm wrestle, with no quarter given. And you shouldn't be rewarded for "recycling possession" for 18 phases.

Or perhaps his idea of a good time is watching Franz Steyn attempting 55 metre drop goals.

 

[cyclopath]

Or perhaps a Pac-man-like maul meandering its way up field, breaking down periodically for a scrum that takes 6 resets to achieve a state of Nirvana. Then repeat ad absurdio. I can hear the thrashwank from Cork as I type...
(Had to use thrashwank now Naza is back!)

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

This is argument doesn't tally with the other, which is that the best "rule benders" tailor themselves to the Refs. Ping em, they stop. Let em go, they'll do it more.

True. I don't disagree the refs being stricter would have positive results. Just that when they do people might start claiming the refs are making the game all about them, blowing their whistle too much ect... Not that it matters, suppose i sidetracked the discussion there.

The problem seems to be how the refs interpret the effect of an infringement. It's not so much they ignore laws, they probably see a lot of infringements in a game that they don't pull up simply because it didn't have any effect on the game. Scarfman's videos show most infringements are not called up, although he does show that a couple of these had enough of an affect to be penalized. Plus, some penalties given didn't have as much effect as others. The answer seems to be getting this mix right, and ensuring the interpretation of "effect" is more consistent around the board.

 

[Nusadan]

What's wrong with 9 tries in a test match?

Nothing wrong with it at all...quite the opposite, think about it further...say give a generous 4 mins average per try plus conversions, so leaving 40 plus minutes of other stuff we also like to see, like hard hitting tackles, close shaves, engrossing scrum battles, aerial warfares from lineouts and high kicks...you get my drift...

Of course it'd be boring if one team scores all 9 tries, unless if the Wallabies do it against the Poms or ABs...then we'll be hearing more than just thrashwanks from places other than Cork!

 

[dudebudstud]

I have concerns in the diversity in interpretation of the laws. The management of referees needs to be questioned. It's not their job to make the game flow but to officiate in accordance with the laws. If a ref needs to blow the pea out of the whistle because players are constantly pushing their luck, so be it. The precedent has been set that teams can play the ref like a fiddle, now it needs to be set that the referees will not tolerate illegal play. The players and coaches will learn.

I would have agreed with you before I took up reffing. But once I grabbed the whistle and reffed a few games I realized that if I enforced every law to the letter, there would be no such thing as a ruck or a maul because EVERY breakdown would result in a penalty or advantage. The game would devolved into rugby league as teams stopped contesting at the breakdown out of fear of a penalty, and would just step back in defense.

The contest for the ball is one of the defining elements of rugby, if we over police it, it would bring the game to a standstill. Much like constant scrum collapses/resets kill the game, a penalty at every breakdown would make the game boring and unplayable.

That being said, that idea of "materiality" is the compromise. Yes the laws are important and need to be enforced, but if the infringement has no material effect, then don't make it effect the game.

 

[Thomond78]

Or perhaps a Pac-man-like maul meandering its way up field, breaking down periodically for a scrum that takes 6 resets to achieve a state of Nirvana. Then repeat ad absurdio. I can hear the thrashwank from Cork as I type...
(Had to use thrashwank now Naza is back!)

Well, if you don't like tries from mauled setpieces, you can hand back the 1991 RWC and we'll give it to the English team who tried to run it instead.

No? How odd...

Oh, and it's "ad absurdam". No wonder surgeons weren't gentlemen.

 

[cyclopath]

Well, if you don't like tries from mauled setpieces, you can hand back the 1991 RWC and we'll give it to the English team who tried to run it instead.

No? How odd...

Oh, and it's "ad absurdam". No wonder surgeons weren't gentlemen.

And no wonder Irishmen think irony is what is used to flatten a shirty!! I actually love a good maul.
Besides, I never mentioned anyone scores in my original post.
And I never claimed to be a gentleman - want a haircut, guvna?

 

[Thomond78]

Given the sort of hair you'd be offering to cut - I'll pass, thanks.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

I think Major Ragerly is suggesting that tests are supposed to be an epic battle, a tightly fought uncompromising arm wrestle, with no quarter given. And you shouldn't be rewarded for "recycling possession" for 18 phases.

Exactly. If you want to see mutliple scoring then watch basketball. If you want to see 9 tries in a match resulting from endless plays of simply recycling posession then watch rugby league.

If you want to see a battle for posession of the ball, where attackers come in, often illegally, to compete, then watch rugby. If you can't accept that bending the rules, from the opposition & from your own team, is part of the match, then frankly, your watching the wrong sport.

 

[antipodean]

I have concearns in the diversity in interperetation of the laws. The management of referees needs to be questioned. It's not their job to make the game flow but to officiate in accordance with the laws. If a ref needs to blow the pea out of the whistle because players are constantly pushing their luck, so be it. The precident has been set that teams can play the ref like a fiddle, now it needs to be set that the referees will not tolerate illegal play. The players and coaches will learn.

Then you'll complain that the ref is a pedantic twat ruining the spectacle.

What's wrong with 9 tries in a test match?

Watching one side score 21 tries...

Exactly. If you want to see mutliple scoring then watch basketball. If you want to see 9 tries in a match resulting from endless plays of simply recycling posession then watch rugby league.

Exactly.

Rugby is first and foremost a contest for possession of the ball.

 

[Linus]

Two things that I like to add to the discussion, are the idea of advantage rather than just materiality, as I have started refereeing this season I understand the difficulty, I have as a player been most frustrated with the no call, both watching and playing. I still think it is underutilised

Secondly, the frustration is that I don't intend to cheat, I was penalised alot, but I never went into a ruck (or whatever) trying to cheat, I may have stopped a cheater or two by ......"infringing" and that is where I would like to disagree with MR. Yes it is a contest for possession and I can have as much pleasure watching a 9-6 contest as I can from a 41-39 scoreline, but what I can't stand is systematic and deliberate infringing that is designing to either influence the referee or force the other team to change their style of play. I think we have seen more than the just AB's doing that. You can flood the breakdown legally or contest for the ball without resorting to that. And that is why repeatedly seeing the same teams employ the same tactics is cheating, everyone infringes.

It's up to the referees or management to identify trends and try to be ahead of the tactics rather than wait until it becomes a blight that has everyone whinging. Going into the RWC this is the key time to be ahead of it.

 

[Lee Grant]

The actual greatest game ever played, also staring the Wallabies was 6th July, 1996. No team has come as close to perfection.

That went over everybody's heads anti, but that remains one of the best performances by a test team I have seen and certainly the best wet weather performance. Not the greatest game though as it was one-sided.

IIRR it was the 1st 3N test ever and the Blacks played the game as though it were a dry day. Once I realised that Oz couldn't win I relaxed and enjoyed the AB's play taking all their chances.

But I have mentioned that game a few times before - back to the topic.



There was another annoying thing in the Durban test that got up my nose. Early on the Bok scrum was taking an eternity to pack down with all their standing ups and chatting to each other and wriggling around in their binds. Then in the second half the Wallabies were just as bad.

Referees have permitted this for too long. Because of the institutionalisation of the power hit, not part of rugby tradition, and even unlawful because the front-rowers charging in, referees allow the packs to do all this preliminary stuff so they can perform, or receive, the hit.

Instead of managing the period from when the ball is put in, as they did a while back, they are managing the preliminaries to the bloody hit. But until they get rid of the hit and a real scrum contest can take place on a power push, we are stuck with it.

But refs can still have some good effect until that happens. They can stop the posturing and time delay as the front rowers go through their rituals like sumo wrestlers throwing salt and stamping their feet.

Simply ping the delaying scrum for time wasting - it's in the book.
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