All Blacks tour of South Africa

[Hawko]

If I'm Fozzie I'm no longer standing by the hapless shower of coddled instagram lightweights that have cost him his job. I'm saying fine then, fuck you, thanks for fucking nothing shitheads, we're going the Baby Blacks route for Test 2

George Bower Ethan de Groot
Samisoni
Ta'avao Newell
Scott Barrett
Sam Whitelock
Akira
Sam Cane (c), Ardie
Ardie Savea, Sotutu
Aaron Smith Christie, Barkays Fakatava, Brad Weber, Graeme Bachop, Justin Marshall, ffs pick any prick who will actually provide any sort of running threat now and then
Beauden Barrett, RM
Caleb Clarke,
David Havili, QT
Rieko Ioane, Fuck knows really
Will Jordan, Rieko vs Reece
Jordie Barrett, Will Jordan

Dane Coles, Tyrel Lomax, Shannon Frizell, Sam Cane, Bower, Taavao and Havili can all absolutely just jog the fuck on please. 2022 All Blacks World Ranking: 5ffs

Hard to disagree given that SA never got out of second gear and still won comprehensively. Still, that level of change would invite a 50 point thrashing just from the team cohesion point of view. Angus Ta'avao, Akira Ioane, Sam Cane, Beauden Barrett, Jordie Barrett all need to go to the bench. A front row of Bower, Samisoni and Newell with Ta'avao and de Groot on the bench. Old man Coles to 16, but not too many minutes. Consider a 6:2 bench, with Bogan as an emergency halfback. At least he'll run occasionally.

Havili, Lomax and Frizell need to disappear from the squad. Savea to 7, his natural position, and Sotutu and someone else to make a new backrow. Whitelock is the natural captain.

Mo'unga to 10, Tupea to 12, Goodhue to 13 as Reiko Ioane is not a 13's bootlace, he has to go to wing. Jordan to 15. Still won't win but will induce some respect.

As an Aussie I can only say thank goodness SA away are a different team than SA at home. Neither Australia or Argentina pose a threat to either SA or NZ. Realistically, France, Ireland and SA are a long way in front of everyone else, and SA should win the RC in a canter.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ Not sure I'd be handing a 22yo prop his first AB start v SA at Ellis Park & unfortunately Goodhue didn't make the plane.

 

[Hawko]

^ Not sure I'd be handing a 22yo prop his first AB start v SA at Ellis Park & unfortunately Goodhue didn't make the plane.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Didn't know about Goodhue, did they send an alternative?

 

[Dismal Pillock]

^ Not sure I'd be handing a 22yo prop his first AB start v SA at Ellis Park

A 22-year old leftover piece of cake would do a better job than whatever Angus Taavao and Tyrel Lomax are capable of.

 

[Jeffrey]

On personnel - i'm not sure that is really going to be the difference for the ABs. The players play within a structure. It's very hard for even the best players to defend properly in non-rush defence. It's hard for the players to attack well when it is just one out ball runners.

That said, and while there is a risk for Fletcher Newell to be overwhelmed at such a high level, he should get to play some role for 2 reasons. First, he is genuinely already a better tighthead than Lomax, who is so soft, and whose gym numbers are really bad for such a heavy man. Second, Newell represents a little bit of the old school, players like Thorne, Jack, Flynn. Ok they might not always be flashy. But on defence, they are willing to barrel head first to stop a push from 50cm off the ground. It's about commitment and defending the line.

On centres - this is a particularly big problem, because we settled on Reiko being a 13. His backup is Brayden Ennor. So unless we are prepared to shift Havili to 13 (a position he has actually played before for Tasman), or Quinn at 13 (he doesn't look like a 13), then it's between someone who can't play 13 (Reiko) and someone who can't... well play (Ennor). Another option is Jordie Barrett at 13... this sounds terrible because Jordie is a ball hog, so the wings don't get the ball. But that's not much worse than Reiko, who doesn't get it to the wing either.

The backrow is primed for some change. I agree with Sotutu coming in. He is the most natural 8, and he needs to be tested in the physical exchanges and his workrate. He is also reasonably secure line-out ball. Since Foster will not likely drop Cane, a possible combination could be 6. Cane, 7. Ardie, and 8. Hoskins.
While Frizell was so stupid when he came on, I think he is marginally better than Akira, who really needs an attitude change - he needs to get out of Auckland.
Another option is Dalton, but 6 is not really his thing. While he is quite tall, he isn't that robust presence needed at 6.
Scobar is the final option at 6 - this would mean bringing Patrick in to start, because for all his flaws, Patrick is still more robust than Tupou, who plays like a Fijian forward... in 7s.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Didn't know about Goodhue, did they send an alternative?

Braydon Ennor. Desperate times yes but not Braydon Ennor desperate...

Today's Hurld has a front-page Editorial:

Full text here but you get the drift...

The Herald says: Ian Foster and the All Blacks - it's time for change

'It's time for an end to Ian Foster's time as head coach of the All Blacks.'

www.nzherald.co.nz

Losing by 16 means AB are now fifth in the rankings.

 

[Slim 293]

In what game of rugby in the last 10 years have you been able to clatter straight into the kick receiver, no way near the ball and go unpenalized? Not to mention clatter into support players with no arms.

The AB's literally have no idea what to do in phase play. If there is quick line speed from the D we are completely blunt. The only way to negate is a proper kicking game (haven't had since Carter left) or the forward pack being dominant (we won't be against SA).

Here's hoping for a continuous, break-free second 40 minutes.

Yeah, nah… Gardner was fine.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Unpopular opinion but the ABs have major issues beyond simple mistakes. These issues are all interrelated:
- Our forwards are relatively poor ball-carriers. We keep neglecting the weights for fitness and finesse. It's not a dichotomy. Every team has monsters, except us.
- We have no strategy on attack. Everything is one-out runners. Combine this with the above, and our attack is blunt.
- We don't really defend at Super Level. Defences is very optional. But at the highest level, our lack of commitment on defence at club level shows
- This is worsened because we do not rush in defence. Every top defence rushes. It is the only way to defend.
- Our wingers and FB dont get much practice under the high ball. In contrast, the North and the Boks have some killer FBs.
- Some of our cattle isn't as good as the past. Our tighthead today was Angus Ta'avao and Tyrel Lomax. Our bench looks so inexperienced and undynamic. Old man Coles. Lomax. Vai'i. Christie. Tupeau. It's not names that strike fear into anyone. But there's no next tier coming up.
- Some of the players have very poor basics. Reiko Ioane for example, is really only a reasonable player when the ball is in his hands. He doesn't offer much in support, spacing, or decoy. It's either him running or its nothing. His brother Akira tackles upright. At schoolboy level, it was too easy for the 2 of them. So they never really learnt to play. Now at international level, they can't change their habits.

There is 1 silver lining though. No one can be worse than Foster. I'm not sure Robertson is the answer. But he cant be worse than Foster. 1 more loss, and hopefully we never see Ian again.

This is how Aus Rugby have felt for 20 years.

Welcome.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Yeah, nah… Gardner was fine.

I had one quibble wrt the inordinate number of "injury" breaks he allowed bokke to have.

I heard comms say it was 30C in Nelspruit on game day so I'm OK with the regular water breaks but all those "injury" breaks on top is just taking the piss & I'd have liked Gus to get a little @Pfitzy on their arses as in "he either takes his place in the scrum/ lineout Right Fucking Now or get him off my field." Hoping Pearce takes a harder line this week.

Other than that I thought Gus was pretty decent & got the right amount of help from his AR's & TMO without it getting ridiculous.

 

[Ignoto]

Braydon Ennor. Desperate times yes but not Braydon Ennor desperate...

Today's Hurld has a front-page Editorial:

View attachment 14452

Full text here but you get the drift...

The Herald says: Ian Foster and the All Blacks - it's time for change

'It's time for an end to Ian Foster's time as head coach of the All Blacks.'

www.nzherald.co.nz

Losing by 16 means AB are now fifth in the rankings.

Can you lot just wait until the RC is over and we have a fighting chance to get the Bledisloe back before punting Fraser?

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Fun stats

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[Dctarget]

Rugby Australia has played the long con with Super Pacific, lowering the competition standards the Kiwis face so over time they're soft and plump.

On the other hand, Aussie fans constantly gnash our teeth over which foreign player to pick. If NZ had ability to pick from anywhere like their opposition did, would the result be different?

 

[qwerty51]

Rugby Australia has played the long con with Super Pacific, lowering the competition standards the Kiwis face so over time they're soft and plump.

On the other hand, Aussie fans constantly gnash our teeth over which foreign player to pick. If NZ had ability to pick from anywhere like their opposition did, would the result be different?

No, who would you pick? DMac is probably it.

Luatua?

 

[swingpass]

can i ask the AB cognoscenti, have NZRU ever boned a captain mid tenure ? has a captain ever stood down of their own volition, other than having to retire hurt or retire alltogether ?

 

[Dan54]

I had one quibble wrt the inordinate number of "injury" breaks he allowed bokke to have.

I heard comms say it was 30C in Nelspruit on game day so I'm OK with the regular water breaks but all those "injury" breaks on top is just taking the piss & I'd have liked Gus to get a little @Pfitzy on their arses as in "he either takes his place in the scrum/ lineout Right Fucking Now or get him off my field." Hoping Pearce takes a harder line this week.

Other than that I thought Gus was pretty decent & got the right amount of help from his AR's & TMO without it getting ridiculous.

I thought the Saffas had Gus f***ed, he tried to tell water carrier to go off when they were getting a brearher, they just ignored him, and then another one "accidently" laft a towell on field and managed to walk right off field before coming back on to pick it up. I thought they did it well and Gus had no idea how to handle it, not sure I would of either to be honest.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

can i ask the AB cognoscenti, have NZRU ever boned a captain mid tenure ? has a captain ever stood down of their own volition, other than having to retire hurt or retire alltogether ?

Ian Kirkpatrick lost the captaincy after a 30+ match tour of North America, the UK & France that was deemed a failure despite beating Wales, England & Scotland, drawing with Ireland & only losing to Baabaas & France. Bearing in mind they toured mid-way between the first successful Lions tours of NZ (1971) & SA (1974) & played France last up, some considered that a bit harsh.

Buck Shelford was famously dropped in 1990 despite having a 100% captaincy record. You may recall the "Bring Back Buck" banners from back in the day. Gary Whetton lost the captaincy after the 1991 RWC debacle & played on for at lesat another season of Provincial footy.

Taine Randell lost the captaincy after RWC 1999 but I think he was heading for the door anyways after being undermined by several senior players. Was also told he was to replaced after the 1998 disaster but NZR backed down, allegedly due to someone* threatening to expose the intended new captain having some, shall we say, skeletons in the closet.

Edit: I don't recall a captain ever stepping down of his own accord.

*Edit: that someone being part of the NZRU, not Taine or any other player(s).

That's it wrt recent history, @Dan54 may recall some others from way back...

 

[swingpass]

Ian Kirkpatrick lost the captaincy after a 30+ match tour of North America, the UK & France that was deemed a failure despite beating Wales, England & Scotland, drawing with Ireland & only losing to Baabaas & France. Bearing in mind they toured mid-way between the first successful Lions tours of NZ (1971) & SA (1974) & played France last up, some considered that a bit harsh.

Buck Shelford was famously dropped in 1990 despite having a 100% captaincy record. You may recall the "Bring Back Buck" banners from back in the day. Gary Whetton lost the captaincy after the 1991 RWC debacle & played on for at l sat another season of Provincial footy; Taine Randell lost the captaincy after RWC 1999 but I think he was heading for the door anyways after being undermined by several senior players.

That's it wrt recent history, @Dan54 may recall some others from way back...

thanks i do remember the "bring back buck" furore. i forgot about Taine randall

 

[Dan54]

Ian Kirkpatrick lost the captaincy after a 30+ match tour of North America, the UK & France that was deemed a failure despite beating Wales, England & Scotland, drawing with Ireland & only losing to Baabaas & France. Bearing in mind they toured mid-way between the first successful Lions tours of NZ (1971) & SA (1974) & played France last up, some considered that a bit harsh.

Buck Shelford was famously dropped in 1990 despite having a 100% captaincy record. You may recall the "Bring Back Buck" banners from back in the day. Gary Whetton lost the captaincy after the 1991 RWC debacle & played on for at lesat another season of Provincial footy.

Taine Randell lost the captaincy after RWC 1999 but I think he was heading for the door anyways after being undermined by several senior players. Was also told he was to replac d after the 1998 disaster but NZR backed down, allegedly due to someone threatening to expose the intended new captain having some, shall we say, skeletons in the closet.

Edit: I don't recall a captain ever stepping down of his own accord.

That's it wrt recent history, @Dan54 may recall some others from way back...

David Kirk was dropped as captain after the infamous 1986 schmozzle involving the Cavaliers etc , he was treated real shit by players that went on tour etc and lost position, but then to be made captain when Andy Dalton who was official captain of 87 WC team was injured and never played a game.

 

[swingpass]

So there is some precedent to remove Sam Cane and replace with Whitelock, at least till RWC. Not that i think it is likely

 

[Dismal Pillock]

Fun stats

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Not to worry.

Look on the bright side.

After next week all those numbers will be redundant.....

.....BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE NEWER
AND EVEN WORSE NUMBERS!