All Blacks Northern Tour 2018

[Dan54]

Couldn't agree more with both RN and Blake, I still enjoying how bloody good the test was, even if obviously I would of liked ABs to win. Think we should all celebrate how well this Irish team were, and like RN pointed out for most we can go to bed tonight knowing we have an international sport that can truly be won by more than one team, though I always thought most proper rugby people knew that anyway.

 

[Dctarget]

What a test. That's what you get when you have the two best teams in the world going at it for 80.

By all reports Dublin was a pretty intense place to be last night.

Only whinge about that amazing game was the Irish commentators were dreadful. The one with the heavier accent was unpalatable. His bias was distracting and a detraction from the experience.

 

[Quick Hands]

Yes the comment from Jamie P on twitter summed it up for me where he basically said that feels strange to being saying it but Irish do the basics better than AB's.

Unfortunately the poor AB's are use to playing wallabies more than northern hemisphere teams like Ireland, England etc and lets face it when you play a side like the Wallabies who are struggling at this point to even master the basics it probably has given the AB's a false sense of security of how good they are on the basics!!! Game against England probably did not give the reality check but game against Ireland definitely did.

Schmidt has the Irish doing the basics as well as any team in the world. But he's also got them doing some creative things at speed. I don't think people have given Ireland enough credit for the try they scored. It's very difficult to score from a blind side move straight from a lineout like that. The winger did get a good bounce in the end, but the lead-up work was as good as anything you'll see in rugby at that level.

 

[ACR]

Am I wrong? Or have we just lost 1 test? I agree they a bloody good team, and bloody well coached, but let's not get carried away. I don't even agree we got that many better players than the Irish, as kiwis we have to realise that although we having a purple patch , teams were always going to close the gap, and they have, Ireland I think have a forward pack at least as good as ours in player ability,(with Furlong the best TH, and there 2 locks up there with BR and SW, etc) and backs that are right up there, with Sexton, Kearney etc right up near top of the world in respective positions. If we are to change coaches and or players because we have lost a test we will be changing coaches an awful lot. I just of the opinion that it was a great test, we beaten by better team, and I see no reason to panic etc leading into WC or beyond. This is still the coaching team with the best results in the game.

If we followed the reasoning Schmitd would of been dumped after losing to Wallabies.

Well, 2 tests actually, and in the matches that are actually played like test matches, they were scraping though. England 1 point, SA 2 points. Fact is, for an AB side, they have under performed all year. Don't take this as me saying we need to panic and change, obviously not. Hansen has the runs, a fantastic record and is still completely the best option going into the next world cup. I don't think anyone is suggesting quickfire coaching changes.

The AB's get judged on performance as well as wins, and they have had massive deficiencies this year. Pretty simple. And for perspectives sake, this is a rugby forum, so of course we're picking stuff apart. Otherwise who would criticise the STILL ranked #1 side in the world.

It's just so plainly obvious the AB's were papering over the cracks this year. Still have them as #1 into next year, Ireland as #1.5. They are bloody good after all.

What a test. That's what you get when you have the two best teams in the world going at it for 80.

By all reports Dublin was a pretty intense place to be last night.


Only whinge about that amazing game was the Irish commentators were dreadful. The one with the heavier accent was unpalatable. His bias was distracting and a detraction from the experience.

OMG. Those commentators are actually disgraceful. They flat out lie and peddle provincial bullshit. Makes every other countries pundits look even keeled.

 

[boyo]

Think it hard to argue with that QH, Barnes, Owens, and perhaps Gus seem to be up around the top, mind you I think there are a lot more real good refs than rugby boredies give credit too. I actually don't think a lot of people really understand the laws of rugby, and so well you know if he treats my team well he's pretty good!

This.

 

[boyo]

What a test. That's what you get when you have the two best teams in the world going at it for 80.

By all reports Dublin was a pretty intense place to be last night.

Only whinge about that amazing game was the Irish commentators were dreadful. The one with the heavier accent was unpalatable. His bias was distracting and a detraction from the experience.

Jamie Heaslip or Ryle Nugent?

 

[teach]

No panic here. I do wonder how different the game would have been with Ben Smith at Full back and Naholo on the wing (his pilfering would have been useful).

I think maybe the Damian McKenzie experiment is over, at least as a starter. New players have now experienced big games. We now have a pretty solid squad to take to the World Cup. Still not sure about BB starting first V.

I think there has been a lot of experimentation on this tour and some valuable info gained. Sam Cane may not have been happy seeing how well Ardie Savea did. I am picking the Dwarf, SBW and Jordie B will run riot against Namibia and Italy next year, in their only RWC games (barring injury).

In the end, Ireland were much better and congratulations. I think there have been lessons learned for the ABs too, and better to learn them now, one year out than in pool play.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Matt Todd is heading back to Japan & injured players Squire (knee), SBW (shoulder) & SWhitelock (various incl a groin/ stomach muscle injury he's been carrying since April) have been sent home early & Whitelock given three months off:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...whitelock-and-sonny-bill-williams-return-home

As others have already said, no need for panic but AB really do need to take a long, hard look at the game plan which was found wanting on four occasions this year and at some of the personnel (& where they play), something I'm sure they'll do once back in NZ.

 

[zer0]

No panic here. I do wonder how different the game would have been with Ben Smith at Full back and Naholo on the wing (his pilfering would have been useful).

I think maybe the Damian McKenzie experiment is over, at least as a starter. New players have now experienced big games. We now have a pretty solid squad to take to the World Cup. Still not sure about BB starting first V.

Naholo would be targeted in the air and it risks just being 2009 all over again. The optimal back three setup is what we had at the end of the Irish test: Ioane/B.Smith/B.Barrett, with Mo'unga at first five. That way Barrett gets the extra time and space he needs to run while Ioane and Smith (along with the midfield) are brought into the game more by Mo'unga. Hopefully the English and Irish have forced Hansen to accept this realisation.

Sam Cane may not have been happy seeing how well Ardie Savea did.

Why? I mean, Todd absolutely dominated the breakdown when he filled in for Cane a few years ago and it mattered diddly squat. So I don't see why Savea will cause Cane any problems.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Naholo would be targeted in the air and it risks just being 2009 all over again. The optimal back three setup is what we had at the end of the Irish test: Ioane/B.Smith/B.Barrett, with Mo'unga at first five. That way Barrett gets the extra time and space he needs to run while Ioane and Smith (along with the midfield) are brought into the game more by Mo'unga. Hopefully the English and Irish have forced Hansen to accept this realisation.




Why? I mean, Todd absolutely dominated the breakdown when he filled in for Cane a few years ago and it mattered diddly squat. So I don't see why Savea will cause Cane any problems.

Even though he moved to fullback, it looked to me that Barrett still took the ball at first receiver as often as Richie did at the end. In fact, there seemed to be a distinct flavour of just give the ball to Beauden to see what he can do with it. And he did threaten the line on a few occasions so it does look like there could be some upside with BB at No 15.

 

[KiwiM]

I for one am panicking.

I think this AB team is in trouble for next year's World Cup as I don't think Hansen & co have the balls to make the changes required. They are going to stick with this current lot.

The captain and No. 8 is a shadow of his former self and isn't a great captain. The form no. 8 in the country hasn't even had a test cap yet despite the AB coaches handing caps out to other players like candy.

There is no answer at 6. Squire is not the answer and Scott B is too slow to start at 6 or play very long minutes at 6. Papali'i, Hemopo and Akira should be the main candidates here but I don't see it happening. They've wasted a lot of test caps on Squire and Fifita with very little return.

The number 1 halfback looks past his prime. The number 2 halfback doesn't have the temperament or distribution to play a closing bench role. The number 3 halfback has looked brilliant this year but never gets a proper opportunity.

The number 1 first five is stuck on the bench.

Midfield looks like it's missing a playmaker to unlock defenses.

The defense has been a sieve this year and the attack has scored 1 try in 160 minutes of proper test match rugby.

 

[Dan54]

Ok Kiwi you just go ahead and panic if it makes you feel better. And if you think Ioane is even in the same class as Read at this stage ,I suspect you a little biased. Ioane would of been eaten up by that Irish pack on weekend. He will get there, but will look great against teams that aren't structured , with a sound defensive screen. I perhaps understand why you so dead set against Squire if you a fan of Akira, you obviously not keen on forwards doing forwards work in rucks and mauls, and I not a huge Squire fan, but know he does do a fair bit of work. Not sure who the No1 1st/5 is, but Mounga I thought was pretty average when he came on , and I a fan of his, but he not No1 yet. Chill mate, we are going alright, not guaranteed of winning world cup, but never have been, and the beauty of rugby is that noone is!

 

[Derpus]

Once again i am left amused by the angst a single (close) loss causes All Black supports.

Still clear favourites for the next RWC.

 

[KiwiM]

Ok Kiwi you just go ahead and panic if it makes you feel better. And if you think Ioane is even in the same class as Read at this stage ,I suspect you a little biased. Ioane would of been eaten up by that Irish pack on weekend. He will get there, but will look great against teams that aren't structured , with a sound defensive screen. I perhaps understand why you so dead set against Squire if you a fan of Akira, you obviously not keen on forwards doing forwards work in rucks and mauls, and I not a huge Squire fan, but know he does do a fair bit of work. Not sure who the No1 1st/5 is, but Mounga I thought was pretty average when he came on , and I a fan of his, but he not No1 yet. Chill mate, we are going alright, not guaranteed of winning world cup, but never have been, and the beauty of rugby is that noone is!

We don't know how Akira would have gone. He's never been given a shot. He wasn't eaten up by the Lions pack last year when he played for the Maori and the Blues. He wasn't eaten up by any pack in the Mitre 10 Cup. What we do know is that Read was awful and Squire has been anonymous the last two weeks.

I just looked up the ESPN stats - against Ireland Squire had 5 runs for 2 metres gained and made 3 tackles - one of which he was penalised for a high tackle. Against England he had 3 runs for zero metres gained while making 5 tackles. Zero turnovers generated in those 2 games from Squire. Against Ireland we got whipped big time at the breakdown - our loosies got owned by the Irish counterparts so i'm not sure where all this ruck work of Squire comes from.

To me - if you are going to have a loosie who doesn't do much work and has basically zero impact you are far better off going with a loosie who is either far more likely to actually have an impact (like Akira) or a loosie who actually WILL have a high workrate (this is where Hemopo or Papali'i come in).

 

[zer0]

I think this AB team is in trouble for next year's World Cup as I don't think Hansen & co have the balls to make the changes required. They are going to stick with this current lot.

This is more-or-less my position, too. I believe the selections for the top side are mostly right (though the squad places, less so.....), but I don't agree with the current approach they're pursuing. Hansen, however, has said that they're going to stick with it. I guess we'll have to wait until next season to see whether he sticks it out or pragmatism takes over. My best hope is that, come the RWC elimination stage, they'll go full Lions I/Crusaders mode and just bulldoze their way there. But given they didn't revert to that style until the very end of Lions III, when the series was on the line, I'm not holding my breath.

There is no answer at 6. Squire is not the answer and Scott B is too slow to start at 6 or play very long minutes at 6. Papali'i, Hemopo and Akira should be the main candidates here but I don't see it happening. They've wasted a lot of test caps on Squire and Fifita with very little return.

I wouldn't say there's no answer. But I agree the right answer hasn't been found since the refs decided Kaino was playing too tough for the rest of the kids in the playground. I believe S.Barrett can be effective at blindside, and Hemepo could be an option, too. But, honestly, Cane would be my preferred choice. Heavy gain-line defence is his forte and he's decently mobile, but doesn't grab that many turnovers. Shifting him across would allow Todd to slot into the vacated openside position, which would likely generate more turnovers. Plus he's a damned good player to begin with. Then have S.Barrett on the bench to cover 4/5/6 and Savea to cover 7/8.

A.Ioane is much more of a #8, so wouldn't consider him at blindside.

Midfield looks like it's missing a playmaker to unlock defenses.

I think the midfield has the right players but has looked flat because they've largely been stuck with two playmakers at 10 and 15 whose go-to plays are to run themselves. It's hard for the midfielders -- and wingers, for that matter -- to make an impact when they're often relegated to following the playmakers for an off-load. As I was originally going to reply to BR above, the backline recently looks like an U15 team where two guys hog the ball all the time while the others just stand around twiddling their thumbs.

 

[Dan54]

We don't know how Akira would have gone. He's never been given a shot. He wasn't eaten up by the Lions pack last year when he played for the Maori and the Blues.

To me - if you are going to have a loosie who doesn't do much work and has basically zero impact you are far better off going with a loosie who is either far more likely to actually have an impact (like Akira) or a loosie who actually WILL have a high workrate (this is where Hemopo or Papali'i come in).

No argument about Papali'i being in team, but I was at Lions/Blues game last season, and if I hadn't read programme would of hardly known Akira was playing, I still reckon he will be a bloody good player, but not before he learns not to be so bloody lazy and that throwing his handbag isn't going to impress anyone. And he looked that in mitre 10 cup most of this year. I watched bloody near every Mitre 10 game, and hells teeth the Wgton No 8 looked as good if not better then Akira in most games.Akira is a bloody good 'highlights' players, can look great in 5 minute highlight package but not so flash if you watch him for a whole game. Look I understand you fellas are Jafas so think rugby is played like ping pong, but most of us kiwis like our players to do some work on the paddock.

 

[Quick Hands]

Ok Kiwi you just go ahead and panic if it makes you feel better. And if you think Ioane is even in the same class as Read at this stage ,I suspect you a little biased. Ioane would of been eaten up by that Irish pack on weekend. He will get there, but will look great against teams that aren't structured , with a sound defensive screen. I perhaps understand why you so dead set against Squire if you a fan of Akira, you obviously not keen on forwards doing forwards work in rucks and mauls, and I not a huge Squire fan, but know he does do a fair bit of work. Not sure who the No1 1st/5 is, but Mounga I thought was pretty average when he came on , and I a fan of his, but he not No1 yet. Chill mate, we are going alright, not guaranteed of winning world cup, but never have been, and the beauty of rugby is that noone is!

Although I think that the good ship SS All Black is still on the right course. This is a mere storm at sea which has made a few people sea sick.

Try being on the SS Wallaby, it's in a tempest without a compass and all hands are at lifeboat stations.

 

[KiwiM]

No argument about Papali'i being in team, but I was at Lions/Blues game last season, and if I hadn't read programme would of hardly known Akira was playing, I still reckon he will be a bloody good player, but not before he learns not to be so bloody lazy and that throwing his handbag isn't going to impress anyone. And he looked that in mitre 10 cup most of this year. I watched bloody near every Mitre 10 game, and hells teeth the Wgton No 8 looked as good if not better then Akira in most games. Akira is a bloody good 'highlights' players, can look great in 5 minute highlight package but not so flash if you watch him for a whole game. Look I understand you fellas are Jafas so think rugby is played like ping pong, but most of us kiwis like our players to do some work on the paddock.

ESPN stats show in the Blues-Lions game Akira (playing blindside flanker) made the most tackles in the Blues team with 15 tackles (zero missed), had 10 runs for 52 metres, 2 clean breaks and 3 defenders beaten. I remember that game vividly (it's the biggest Blues win in the last 15 years) and Akira had a very strong game.

On your second bold point need I remind you of the semi final between Wellington and Auckland - Akira powered over for the line for 2 tries, set up a 3rd try and got named man of the match.

 

[teach]

ESPN stats show in the Blues-Lions game Akira (playing blindside flanker) made the most tackles in the Blues team .

Making the most tackles in a team that made the least tackles of all the kiwi super rugby franchises isn't that special. In fact the Blues only beat the rebels and the bulls for tackles.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/super-rugby/stats/teams?category=defenceAndDiscipline

 

[KiwiM]

Making the most tackles in a team that made the least tackles of all the kiwi super rugby franchises isn't that special. In fact the Blues only beat the rebels and the bulls for tackles.

I'm talking specifically about the Blues - British & Irish Lions game. He also made more tackles than any Lion in that match - Courtney Lawes topped the Lions with 14 tackles.