AB's - Referees are not being fair to them

[MrTimms]

Great Article, this needs to be looked at. The AB's are getting the rough end of the stick from Refs.

The All Blacks have threatened to implement "golden oldies" scrums next season as tension continues to build over the legality of their set piece platform.

Assistant coach Steve Hansen revealed that depowering the set was a consideration in the aftermath of the Grand Slam-sealing victory over Wales last night -- a success sullied by another scrummaging performance that attracted harsh scrutiny of a northern hemisphere referee.

Ireland's Alan Lewis regularly found fault with the New Zealand eight on the Welsh feed, a contributing factor to the All Blacks' being caned 17-8 in the penalty count during their 37-25 triumph.

Since embarking on their tour of the UK and Ireland the All Blacks have been concerned about how they are officiated when seeking to exert pressure on the opposing pack.

Those month-long frustrations finally boiled over at the Millennium Stadium when an exasperated Hansen said the All Blacks might refuse to shove in future when the opposition halfback crouches to deliver the ball.

Hansen and head coach Graham Henry were so perplexed by Romain Poite's officiating at Twickenham and Dave Pearson's rulings in Scotland a week later that they indicated the International Rugby Board's referees chief Paddy O'Brien would be contacted for clarification.

Wasn't this the same old story after the Iti game last year?

I love this one too, a choice comment from a bro:

#25 - will peak (10:19AM 29 Nov 2010)
There is no doubt in my mind that game officials are cheating example: Wales an obvious one. They were offside at the breakdown, you have to be behind the last person in a ruck or maul before you launch your defence. They werent even warned.

Full Article: Source

 

[barbarian]

I reckon 24 hours before Paddy gives Henry, Hanson, McCaw and all New Zealanders a grovelling apology from the IRB, and blames it all on Stuart Dickinson.

Officiating the scrum is a lottery, and these days if you have the stronger set piece you are definitely favoured, rightly or wrongly. I think it isn't the worst way to go about it, but has obvious flaws. NZ just suffered from the fact that the Welsh ripped them a new arsehole, much like we have every week since 2001.

 

[Newb]

paddy on speed dial #1

 

[Groucho]

The NZRT got a yellow card on the weekend. I can feel their pain.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Yes, scrums are a completely lottery, but I think it's clear that whose going foward is generally getting the rub of the green from the referee - and deservedly so in my opinion.

Now look, I know that complaing about AB's getting bad end of teh stick from referee's is something which is going to be laughed at on this forum, but it's been consistent for a couple of years now that the scrum is ok on our feed, but we get penalised on the opposition feed -consistently. This just doesn't make sense. For all our tactics of giving away penalties when other side is attacking etc, I can't for the life of me see why we would choose to consistently give them away when the feed is against us. Do we find it better to concede 3 points from 45m out on an opposition scrum? I don't think so.

I know this means that generally the opposition front row is beating ours & that's fine. But why can we negate it on our feed, but not on their feed?

 

[Moses]

Has Woodcock ever packed without one hand on the ground?

 

[MrTimms]

Has Woodcock ever packed without one hand on the ground?

That is a moot point. If the ABs are doing it a particular way, that is the right way, Paddy says.

Sent from my Android using Tapatalk

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Has Woodcock ever packed without one hand on the ground?

Dunno. But he's fast becoming, if not already become, the new Al Baxter scrum penalty magnet. Bloody frustrating and irritating to watch. I preferred it when it was Baxter.

 

[Richo]

Our scrum might be pretty fuckin' average, but at least we don't whine to the media and threaten to play golden oldies style just because we get a big serve from the refs. Bloody hell.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Our scrum might be pretty fuckin' average, but at least we don't whine to the media and threaten to play golden oldies style just because we get a big serve from the refs. Bloody hell.

Agreed on the golden oldies, but not on the first part... your taking the piss, surely?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Our scrum might be pretty fuckin' average, but at least we don't whine to the media and threaten to play golden oldies style just because we get a big serve from the refs. Bloody hell.

I'm not sure that the sub-Lord of the Darkness Hansen said that they would play Golden Oldies style, he implied that they would simply choose not to contest the scrum.

The Golden Oldies thing was something dreamed up by a Sub-Editor as the article headline. Certainly worked as it grabbed our attention.

In some respects, I am surprised why it has taken so long for anyone to come up with the idea of not pushing.

The International scrum has ceased to be a real contest for the ball, now that cheating runt #9's illegally feed the scrum. It is a contest of the scrum hit. Lose that and you may lose the scrum, or end up getting bad ball at the base of your scrum.

Plenty of defensive lineouts choose not to jump or contest in the air. Why should the scrum be different?

My brief glance over the Laws (20.9a) "A player must not intentionally collapse a scrum" (20.2a) "When the scrum has formed, the body and feet of each front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove" suggests that there is nothing illegal in not pushing (a little immoral but not illegal), provided at the time of the scrum being formed the front row COULD execute a forward shove if it chose to do so.

The "must not intentionally collapse a scrum" law prevents the Tug of War "release the rope slightly to make them fall over then pull to win" strategy at scrum time.

I am sure that the evil Lords of the Darkness will work out some counter strategy marginally within the laws of the game to ensure that they are not seriously disadvantaged if they allow their defensive scrums to go backwards to prevent getting pinged for the hit (and the Myth's hand on the ground).

 

[Sandpit Fan]

Agreed on the golden oldies, but not on the first part... your taking the piss, surely?

MR, was that the part about our scrum being PFA, or whining to the media..... Sorry mate, couldn't resist!!

 

[cyclopath]

Has Woodcock ever packed without one hand on the ground?

You mean like Benn Robinson does? They both do it regularly. All depends whether the ref is on their side to see or not, or they fluke an assistant ref who actually picks it up.

 

[Scarfman]

This thread could do with some details.

According to that article, Hansen is complaining about Rolland, Poite, and Pearson in regard to "how they are officiated when seeking to exert pressure on the opposing pack."

So, in those 3 games (Wales, England, Scotland), it would seem that the scrum collapsed on the oppo feed, and the ABs were blamed for it, when Hansen is suggesting that the oppo was guilty of collapsing.

The answer is don't put pressure on, just let them win their ball.

We can stop trying to put pressure on the opposition scrum so they stay up. We want to put pressure on them but if they fall over all the time we're getting penalised.

So far, so good. But then Hansen and Henry introduce some excuses into the equation:

You could see the turf turned up, he obviously felt they slipped over but Alan Lewis gave a penalty.

That's when you get frustrated with the officiating. Maybe a little commonsense would have been good.

It's difficult for both sides to scrum well on that field so I think there needs to be a bit of sensitivity there.

Right, so the scrum collapsed on the oppo feed, the ABs got penalised when it was either the oppo's fault, or, the surface.

Who has seen the games, and what do they think?

 

[Gagger]

I'm not sure Franks has kept straight in a scrum this season, but hey, neither has just about every other THP we played against.

As you say MR, it seems to be about who's going fwd - which Aus certainly isn't!

As for ruining a scrum on the oppo feed - isn't that the point? Why would you fuck up your own feed/ball?

 

[sevenpointdropgoal]

The All Blacks play a Hitchhiker's Guide style of rugby; Where reality and the All Blacks disagree, it is reality that is in error.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Yeah, I agree they are trying to disrupt on opposition ball, and fine whatever. But when you get penlised time after time, game after game, you'd think they'd start to figure out that disrupting doesn't work, and thus just try to scrum. Better opposition ball back of a scrum than a penalty is it not?

but then again, front rowers have never been known for their brains. Maybe not.

 

[Hodgy]

sorry MR but its not true that the ABs were solid on their own ball all autumn, against England they were penalised a few times on their own ball and obviously collapsed a few, notably with Woodcock going to ground either with knee or by dropping his bind against Cole. It was very obvious and the ref had no option about who to ping, it is a shame that by simply repeating the notion that they've been stable on their own ball over and again, it seems to have become the received wisdom.

 

[Top Bloke]

Right, so the scrum collapsed on the oppo feed, the ABs got penalised when it was either the oppo's fault, or, the surface.

Who has seen the games, and what do they think?

The surface at Millenium has long been a problem, Saturday was was no different. Several times the scrum was moved to find fresh turf, after each scrum the ground was torn up. Hard to say exactly who was dropping who - but a major part of the problem is the refs not insisting on props binding correctly with a long bind onto their oppos side. Every prop now tries to bind directly onto the tricep or just behind the armpit. the logical result can only be downward pressure and then collapse.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

sorry MR but its not true that the ABs were solid on their own ball all autumn, against England they were penalised a few times on their own ball and obviously collapsed a few, notably with Woodcock going to ground either with knee or by dropping his bind against Cole. It was very obvious and the ref had no option about who to ping, it is a shame that by simply repeating the notion that they've been stable on their own ball over and again, it seems to have become the received wisdom.

Ok, not going to argue, just going on the stats which I read each week in the herald which seem to suggest this.

By my own recollection, I honestly couldn't tell you if it's our feed or theirs.

As I said above about Woodcock, he's the new penalty magnet.