A Silver Fern view of Pocock

[PaarlBok]

You lot can PoCock , I'll Brussouw all over you. Think Stegman is also just about there. Brussouw make them all look old in the S14 and he just down the Lions in both tests the time he spend on the field.

 

[cyclopath]

You lot can PoCock , I'll Brussouw all over you. Think Stegman is also just about there. Brussouw make them all look old in the S14 and he just down the Lions in both tests the time he spend on the field.

Brussouw is good, PB, no doubt. When he outshines McCaw and Smith in a test against them I'll put him in the same category. Not saying he can't or won't, but he remains unproven for me till then. In any event you guys are right to be excited by his potential. :thumb

 

[formeropenside]

Has Smith ever outshone McCaw though, head to head? I'd say McCaw has consistently won that duel, and I dont think you can seriously argue Smith is better than McCaw.

Also, McCaw doesn't do the silly stuff Smith does - the kicks in general play, etc.

I'm something of a heretic on Pocock: I think he'd be a better running and linking 8 than a fetcher 7. He'd have to put on a few kgs - but only a very few - and I think he'd be a great 8 in the Hoiles mode, except effective.

 

[cyclopath]

Has Smith ever outshone McCaw though, head to head? I'd say McCaw has consistently won that duel, and I dont think you can seriously argue Smith is better than McCaw.

Also, McCaw doesn't do the silly stuff Smith does - the kicks in general play, etc.

I'm something of a heretic on Pocock: I think he'd be a better running and linking 8 than a fetcher 7. He'd have to put on a few kgs - but only a very few - and I think he'd be a great 8 in the Hoiles mode, except effective.

I'm not arguing Smith is better than McCaw - I am saying I think Smith and McCaw have the runs on the board, and for mine are better than Brussouw. They are the yardsticks at 7 internationally I think. McCaw doesn't do the silly stuff 'cos he's unco and can't kick! :fishing
You might be right about Pocock too - probably good enough to make either position his own if he wanted to.

 

[PaarlBok]

Brussouw is good, PB, no doubt. When he outshines McCaw and Smith in a test against them I'll put him in the same category. Not saying he can't or won't, but he remains unproven for me till then. In any event you guys are right to be excited by his potential. :thumb

McCaw really looked done when the Cheetahs played the Saders in Osfontein a month or so ago. Tests will be a different story but I banked that one in my memory.

Brussouw and Stegman both Grey Bloem boys. Saw the other day that Jannie Doep was Brussouw senior at Grey and Brussouw, Bismarck and Pienaar all the same class at Grey.

 

[PaarlBok]

I'm something of a heretic on Pocock: I think he'd be a better running and linking 8 than a fetcher 7. He'd have to put on a few kgs - but only a very few - and I think he'd be a great 8 in the Hoiles mode, except effective.

Interesting note the 8 position. If you look at the way Naka use Brussouw, he often pack down there comes scrumtime on the opposite ball. Think its a great move and give him the freedom to get at the breakdowns quicker.

 

[Gagger]

Has Smith ever outshone McCaw though, head to head? I'd say McCaw has consistently won that duel, and I dont think you can seriously argue Smith is better than McCaw.

Also, McCaw doesn't do the silly stuff Smith does - the kicks in general play, etc.

Replay age old argument #3

To summarise: McCaw is a probot. Smith is a genius.

PS - However, thought Whitelock out pilfered Smith when the Saders played the Brumbies this year....

 

[Lee Grant]

It is going to be a great battle, but I doubt either will be as good as McCaw and Smith.

When they had the test experience that Whitelock and Pocock have now, McCaw and Smith weren't as good as McCaw and Smith are now. I think I understand that.

OK George Smith was the MOTM on hid 21st birthday in the 3rd test against the Lions in Sdyney, but by and large the comment above is correct - if I read it correctly.

 

[Cutter]

I'm not sure we appreciate just how good Smith and McCaw are. We might when they retire. Some players are shooting stars. Think of Tom Bowman as an example. These two have been at the top since 2001 and 2002 respectively. Smith and McCaw are rare, rare players. They are legends of the game. If any of Pocock, Whitelock and Brussouw are as good as them (or better) I will be very surprised.

A short fact file for Smith from the ARU website:

The remarkable GEORGE SMITH starts the 2009 international programme just four games short of becoming the 10th player in history to play 100 Test matches.

This follows a stunningly successful 2008 where Smith became the first ever duel recipient of the John Eales Medal, Smith also re-won the Brumbies Player’s Player award for the seventh time, and the sixth time in succession, as well as winning the Australian Super 14 Player of the Year award.

He also successfully captained the Wallabies in victories over the All Blacks in Sydney and a star-studded Barbarians outfit at Wembley. Then there was the small matter of becoming the most capped loose forward in the history of the game, which he achieved when he overtook Frenchman Olivier Magne by playing his 90th Test.

The 28-year-old finished the 2008 Test season having appeared in 13 of Australia’s record 14 Test matches. Earlier in the year, Smith had played alongside his brother Tyrone (a centre) with the Brumbies, with the pair featuring in all 13 games as George joined George Gregan, Jeremy Paul, Stephen Larkham and Stirling Mortlock in surpassing a century of Super rugby matches for the Canberra-based franchise.

He is now the most capped forward in the history of the Brumbies, with his tally of 120 appearances second only to the 136 played by George Gregan. Smith this year re-signed with the Brumbies and the Australian Rugby Union until after the 2011 Rugby World Cup.



Career Timeline

1997-1998 Smith represented Australian Schools out of Kromer High School in two consecutive years.
1999-2000 Signed by the Brumbies from the Manly colts before making his Super 12 and Test debut in the same year. Smith scored a try in the Super 12 Final against the Crusaders, and debuted for the Wallabies during the 18-13 win against France in Paris.
2001-2002 Celebrated his 21st birthday with a Man-of-the-Match performance against the British & Irish Lions in the third and deciding Test of the 2001 series. A year later, Smith won the John Eales Medal as the Wallabies Best and Fairest player.
2003-2004 A Rugby World Cup finalist with the Wallabies in 2003 and a key member of the Brumbies 2004 Super 12 Championship winning team
2005 Played his 50th Test against France at Suncorp Stadium, finished the year as the Wallabies Number 8 and won the Brumbies Players’ Player award for the fourth time.
2006 Played in 12 of Australia’s 13 Tests and was named vice captain for the first time against Italy in Rome.
2007 Extended his leadership credentials by captaining the Brumbies on six occasions. He then became Australia’s 75th Test Captain against Canada at Rugby World Cup, and wound up featuring in all but one of Australia’s 12 Tests for the year.
2008 Surpassed a century of Super rugby matches for the Brumbies, becoming just the fourth player from the franchise to do so (he was followed later in the same season by Stirling Mortlock). Then led the Wallabies for a second time in a Test during the season’s Bledisloe Cup opener, while later also skippering a young combination to victory over a star-studded Barbarians XV at Wembley. Smith played in 13 of the Wallabies’ 14 Tests for the year, missing only the Test win in Italy.
2009 Advances to 120 appearances for the Brumbies, the second most by any player for the team, after a fourth straight season where he featured in every game, and picked up the Australian Super 14 Player of the Year award for a third consecutive season. Re-signs with the Australian Rugby Union until after the 2011 Rugby World Cup.

And McCaw from Allblacks.com:

Richard McCaw, or ‘Richie’ as he is widely known, is a key figure for the All Blacks and is generally recognised as the world’s best openside flanker.

McCaw has the size and strength to be a punishing defender, the cool head and quick hands required to master the breakdown area, and the speed and handling skills to play a traditional tearaway’s linking role to superb effect. McCaw was named as All Blacks captain for the first time for the Test against Wales in 2004 aged just 23. He led the side in 12 Tests in 2006.

He was sidelined for the middle part of 2004 with a head injury, but came back mid-way through the Air New Zealand NPC to captain the Canterbury side to a stunning final victory over Wellington. He earned the Air New Zealand NPC Division One Player of the Year for his effort.

A tireless worker who reads the game well, McCaw was voted as Newcomer of the Year by the International Rugby Players Association in 2002.

He was brought up in North Otago and educated at Otago Boys High, where he played his rugby at No 8.

Had an outstanding 2003 Rugby World Cup and won the New Zealand player of the year award at the 2006 and 2003 Steinlager Rugby Awards.

He was awarded the IRB Player of the Year award in 2006 after being a finalist in both the International Rugby Players Association and IRB awards in 2003 and again for the IRB in 2005.

McCaw led Canterbury to the NPC title in 2004 and then took the Crusaders to back-to-back Super 14 titles in 2005 and 2006 before assuming command of the national team.

NZRU Annual Awards
Air New Zealand NPC Division One Player of the Year, 2004 & 2002
Kelvin Tremain Memorial Trophy for Player of the Year, 2003, 2006
Under 21 Player of the Year, 2001

Career Notes
• Scored the All Blacks' first two tries of Rugby World Cup 2007, against Italy at Marseille.
• Received the 2006 IRB and NZRU Player of the Year Awards.
• Was the only All Blacks player to play in all seven of the team’s winter Tests in 2007 and the only All Black to start in 12 Tests in 2006.
• With victory in one of the All Blacks’ first three matches at the Rugby World Cup, he will become the fastest player ever to reach 50 Test wins.
• Is the 60th All Blacks Test captain. Named as All Blacks captain for the first time against Wales in 2004 at the age of just 23.
• Received the IRB Newcomer of the Year Award in 2001.

New Zealand Representative Teams
New Zealand Under 19 in 1999
New Zealand Under 21 in 2000, 2001
All Blacks in 2001–2008

Stats - Below figures correct as at 1 July 2008

Provincial Caps 28
Provincial Points 45 (9t)
Provincial Debut 2000 v North Harbour
Super Rugby Caps 83
Super Rugby Points 105 (21t)
Super Rugby Debut 2001 v Hurricanes

 

[Scorz]

I think most Kiwi's appreciated it a whole lot more in the last 3 tests and last year at the beginning of the 3N mate!

 

[Pfitzy]

I reckon Pocock could be better than Smith, but his style is different so its hard to draw comparisons. Pocock is just like a young Phil Waugh - straight at the ball, hard in the ruck, more confrontational.

Smith has the knack of being in the right place at the right time for the right reasons. However I've noticed in the last couple of seasons why the Kiwis hate him: he is in the side of the ruck a LOT. Almost as many times per game as that McCaw bloke not releasing the tackled player...

 

[Gagger]

Smith has the knack of being in the right place at the right time for the right reasons. However I've noticed in the last couple of seasons why the Kiwis hate him: he is in the side of the ruck a LOT.

Yeah, he got away with that a few times last week against the Frogs, including a number of his turnovers.

 

[Cutter]

Smith has the knack of being in the right place at the right time for the right reasons. However I've noticed in the last couple of seasons why the Kiwis hate him: he is in the side of the ruck a LOT.

Yeah, he got away with that a few times last week against the Frogs, including a number of his turnovers.

That's what opensides are supposed to do. If they get pulled up for it, they stop. Then they start again later in the game. Part of the skill of an openside is conning the ref. Its partly why McCaw is so good too.

Scorz - noted and I'm not surprised.

 

[Gagger]

Smith has the knack of being in the right place at the right time for the right reasons. However I've noticed in the last couple of seasons why the Kiwis hate him: he is in the side of the ruck a LOT.

Yeah, he got away with that a few times last week against the Frogs, including a number of his turnovers.

That's what opensides are supposed to do. If they get pulled up for it, they stop. Then they start again later in the game. Part of the skill of an openside is conning the ref. Its partly why McCaw is so good too.

No shit. Maybe someone can tell me what the posts on the ground are for as well?

 

[Scorz]

Smith has the knack of being in the right place at the right time for the right reasons. However I've noticed in the last couple of seasons why the Kiwis hate him: he is in the side of the ruck a LOT.

Yeah, he got away with that a few times last week against the Frogs, including a number of his turnovers.

That's what opensides are supposed to do. If they get pulled up for it, they stop. Then they start again later in the game. Part of the skill of an openside is conning the ref. Its partly why McCaw is so good too.

No shit. Maybe someone can tell me what the posts on the ground are for as well?

You can kick a penalty goal through them, or a conversion after scoring a try.

 

[Spook]

Pocock is already better than Waugh ever was. If he can become as tough, confrontational and skilful as Smith he'll be excellent.

 

[Pfitzy]

Pocock is already better than Waugh ever was.

Big call based on short memory. The younger Waugh had the hard-nosed attitude of the current model and was faster too.

Pocock certainly is a prodigious talent, and will eclipse Waugh eventually. But your statement will have to wait until Pocock plays a major role in winning a Test match.

 

[waratahjesus]

i must be one of the only ones who doesnt think waugh is done yet.
pocock is getting there and deserves game time but his reputation is bigger than his ability for me at this stage.
he still has a long way to go, and frankly with every coach and fan talking him up, once he has to stand in smiths shoes alone, im not sure he is going to seem as great when he finally takes over.

 

[Pfitzy]

I don't think Waugh is done yet either - his leadership alone makes him valuable on the field. But it wasn't until I saw some footage of Waratahs v BIL on the 2001 tour that I realised how bulky he is now.

 

[farva]

Deans has already declared that Pocock is in better than McCaw was at the same stage of his career. Of course that means nothing for where they will end up, but it does give an idea of how good the coaches rate Pocock.