8 point tries?

[Thomond78]

I was thinking about this the other day, and wondered what a game with no goal penalties and no conversions would look like. I can't help but think it could be a lot more interesting.

Very interesting hypothesis. You could incorporate metre penalties; for example, for foul play the penalty kick for the line on tap kick would be 20 metres upfield from the offence. Add team fouls - five penalties within the opposition half would result in a penalty try. Might be fun.

it would make for a fun trial run, maybe a basketball type system where three team fouls equalled a shot at goal if wanted

William Webb is now turning over in his grave!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, with excitement that the game might be played as he intended.

Hacking in the loose scrimmage, and the only way you could score points being if you got either a penalty kick or, by virtue of dotting it down over the line, getting the right to try to score a goal?

Well, call me Mr. Old-Fashioned, but playing the game Webb Ellis actually intended it to be played might be a bit boring for you lot...

As for the rest, what Lee said, quoting what I said.

Oh, and I like Liquorbox's idea about time going for a penalty kick being dead time.

 

[Biffo]

I was thinking about this the other day, and wondered what a game with no goal penalties and no conversions would look like. I can't help but think it could be a lot more interesting.

Very interesting hypothesis. You could incorporate metre penalties; for example, for foul play the penalty kick for the line on tap kick would be 20 metres upfield from the offence. Add team fouls - five penalties within the opposition half would result in a penalty try. Might be fun.

it would make for a fun trial run, maybe a basketball type system where three team fouls equalled a shot at goal if wanted

William Webb is now turning over in his grave!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, with excitement that the game might be played as he intended.

Hacking in the loose scrimmage, and the only way you could score points being if you got either a penalty kick or, by virtue of dotting it down over the line, getting the right to try to score a goal?

Well, call me Mr. Old-Fashioned, but playing the game Webb Ellis actually intended it to be played might be a bit boring for you lot...

As for the rest, what Lee said, quoting what I said.

Oh, and I like Liquorbox's idea about time going for a penalty kick being dead time.

Scotty wrote of "a game with no goal penalties and no conversions". Hard to understand?

 

[Wazimba2K]

I think the drop goal should be reduced to 2 points. The penalty should stay the same. Screw England and Wilkinson! The interchange should be allowed or change match day 22 to 25.

 

[Pfitzy]

They changed the rules in Subbies this year: 8 interchanges allowed, people subbed off can come back on. Basically 8 league style interchanges.

Teams are already rorting it when the ref and touchies aren't looking. Keeping in mind our poor lower divisions rarely have a full set of officials.

It does mean you can field a XXIII instead of a XXII

 

[Cutter]

No to interchange.
Penalties and droppies reduced to 2 points.
Increased yellow cards.

 

[straightshooter]

Tries should be worth 8 as they are hard to come by and that is what the crowd wants to see.

Penalties should be 2 PLUS yellow card for deliberate naughties in 22 and taken straight in front (to guarantee the points and to penalise the naughty team).

Conversions should be 1 and taken straight in front (like NFL) so that games are not determined by sharpshooters
All kicks should be taken within 30 seconds to keep pressure on and game moving.

 

[Godfrey]

Conversions being taken in front is a really, really bad idea. The beauty of rugby is in the myriad of skills that are required to be an effective, dominant team. Having a great kicker is one of those and taking that out would be like putting a speed limit on how fast people can run so you don't have speedy wingers dominating the game. Also, it adds a new element to scoring a try in tight situations as you need to try and get it close to the backdot. One of my favourite traits is seeing a defender who knows he won't catch someone not just giving up, but heading the person off so they make the kick difficult for the kicker.

Also, the point about 8 pointers that others have made is that it may actually reduce the number of tries. If the differential between penalties and tries is 6 points and you a team in your half/22 putting pressure on you - what are you likely to do? Impede them illegally and give away 2 points or run the risk of 8? Yes, you will have teams going for tries more but you will see the breakdown slowed incredibly by illegal play.

 

[stoff]

Why not have penalties drop kicked and the time limit reduced to 30 seconds because there is no messing around placing tees, removing your scrum cap, pulling up your socks, lining up your run-up, adopting strange poses, etc. Make the place kick exclusively for conversions.

 

[Pfitzy]

Limit all place kicks to 20 seconds. Change nothing else.

 

[Scotty]

Maybe to mitigate against Lee's unintended consequences they should also bring in a rule that every 4th or 5th penalty = yellow card, no matter the offense. This would definately reduce the number of penalties we see in a game.

Or you could have 5 penalties = yellow, 10 penalties = red, 15 penalties = red for skipper.

 

[Lee Grant]

Also, the point about 8 pointers that others have made is that it may actually reduce the number of tries. If the differential between penalties and tries is 6 points and you a team in your half/22 putting pressure on you - what are you likely to do? Impede them illegally and give away 2 points or run the risk of 8? Yes, you will have teams going for tries more but you will see the breakdown slowed incredibly by illegal play.

Beautifully put Godfrey.

I would favour a trial after the RWC just to put this to bed, with one proviso, but it would have to be at all levels of rugby.

I don't think the IRB will go for it though. They were correct in not trialling the FK sanctions globally because, unfortunately, the theoretical complaint that players would be allowed to be cynical was proven in fact during two seasons of the Super14. They will have the same doubts about increasing the value of the try and for the reasons you and T78 mention.

My one proviso pertains to the referees showing some starch in using yellow cards in other areas - and during the current crackdown on players not complying with the laws as they are written would be very timely. If the refs can be taken by the scruff of the neck and slapped around to stop cynical play by defenders in their 22 and especially near their goal line during the crackdown, and they comply, increasing the value of a try would be worthy of a trial.

Until then, a trial makes no sense, and the IRB should not countenance it. I even fear that the crackdown itself won't work because the referees won't observe another law as it is written - giving yellow cards for persistent infringements.

Some people may think that views such as you and I have expressed about try values not being changed means that we don't favour the encouragement of attacking rugby. It's because we do that we oppose it. We think other things must precede a changing of the points system to make it work.

Cynicism must be cut out with a bold stroke first.

 

[Geronimo]

I would favour a trial after the RWC just to put this to bed, with one proviso, but it would have to be at all levels of rugby.

My one proviso pertains to the referees showing some starch in using yellow cards in other areas - and during the current crackdown on players not complying with the laws as they are written would be very timely. If the refs can be taken by the scruff of the neck and slapped around to stop cynical play by defenders in their 22 and especially near their goal line during the crackdown, and they comply, increasing the value of a try would be worthy of a trial.

Cynicism must be cut out with a bold stroke first.

Very good point Lee, the only way it will work!!

 

[TOCC]

reducing the time allowed to take a kick will solve a lot of the problems

 

[Thomond78]

Maybe to mitigate against Lee's unintended consequences they should also bring in a rule that every 4th or 5th penalty = yellow card, no matter the offense. This would definately reduce the number of penalties we see in a game.

Or you could have 5 penalties = yellow, 10 penalties = red, 15 penalties = red for skipper.

It's pretty much already in the laws. Law 10 (3) (c) - three of the same penalty, you warn, then bin for the next one. And the refs bottle it. So, while I understand where you're coming from, as the Life President of the Kurtley Beale Fan Club has pointed out, it doesn't work, alas.

 

[Scotty]

I'm not suggesting 3 of the same penalty, I'm suggesting a controversial, black and white rule on total number of penalties. No matter what is it is for, the 5th penalty would see a yellow card. Therefore no scope for the referee to have to go to judgement calls, and each and every team will know where they stand.

 

[Pfitzy]

Use Jimmy Cowan as an example - 22nd minute, no more than the usual number of penalties. He commits a cynical act and gets a card as he should. No warnings, no cocking about.

Later in the game Jonkers penalises another player but can't decide whether it was deliberate so he warns. Its fairly simple.

Another thing I want changed: refs requiring the player to take the tap right on the mark. I say if they're within a couple of metres, go for it, but the "not back 10" doesn't count.