2nd 5/8th style inside centre

[naza]

The theory of a 2nd 5/8th inside centre makes sense. You have an extra ball player who takes the pressure off the flyhalf and gives the attack more options. With this Wallaby team, Matt Giteau runs the ball a lot and is a lefty, so having a Barnes/Cooper type makes even more sense.

However, after seeing Quade Cooper kick a mountain of ball away the last few games I really have to wonder if this 2nd 5/8th style inside centre is working for us in practice. We have two ball players yet the outside backs are seeing hardly any ball. If anything I'd suggest we're less creative and more reliant than ever on individual brilliance. We didn't look to have many options against Scotland with Cooper forced to crash it up. And our kicking is more aimless than ever. I keep waiting for the long promised attacking floodgates to open. The way things are going, I reckon I'd rather see a 100kg meathead at 12 and us recycling the ball 15 phases.

Is it a personnel problem ? Too many chiefs not enough indians ? Does it just not suit the Australian style of play ? Or is the wrong approach for this defence dominant era, given Nonu, Roberts, De Villiers are the leading 12s in world rugby. Or do you reckon its a rip roaring success & I'm full of shit ? (Incoming !!).

 

[Aussie D]

I've been thinking the same way myself (I will see the psychologist tomorrow) in regards to this, though who do we have who can play the same as a Nonu or DeVilliers? The only names that come to mind are Tyrone Smith, Tom Carter and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). The 3 of them have the crash ball down pat but don't seem to give the pass once through the line (if they get through it - something TC struggles with). The other option could be Turinui if he comes back into form and loses the turnstyle tackling style. Maybe Will Chambers will get a go there for the Reds as he could be an option...

 

[Viking]

totally agree we are more reliant on individual brilliance, Mainly in the number 10 jersey, this can be seen heavily on the spring tour with matt giteau. When his game is off we lose, when he plays well we win convincingly. However Im not sure if im a fan of crash ballers at 12. Look how bad our attack was when AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) played 12 vs the boks. Nonu plays well, but id rather have Mcalister at 12 n Nonu at 13. Im pretty sure thats what the AB's would do too if McAlister was fit. Plus a crash baller at 12 would only work with a consistant 10. With the likes of Dan Carter on the feild, they dont need too much more creativity which makes Nonu at 12 a good combo. Giteau however is not a natural 10, he is capable as seen vs wales but his creativity is not consistant he makes to many bad choices at 10. I think once barnes is fit we stick him as the number 1 flyhalf and giteau in the number 12 jersy, They should continue to switch but having barnes at the primary first receiver. Barnes is solid but doesnt have the creativity either so switching them a bit gives them more options. I also like the fact that Aus is probably the only country successfully switching their 10/12 combo during play. Gives us a unique style of play. Plus if we continue to win, then dont fix what isnt broken!

 

[naza]

Plus if we continue to win, then dont fix what isnt broken!

We've won 3 of our past 11. Our attack is broken.

Part of me agrees with John Connolly's comments

''The balance in rugby as a whole has shifted to the defensive side,'' he said. ''Breaking them down presents a number of challenges, more so than it probably used to, and we haven't had the consistency from the attacking players at the line and in parts of our kicking game to enable us to build enough pressure. That's probably the catalyst for why we've struggled.

That didn't stop the All Blacks carving up the frogs though, did it ?

With our lineout no longer elite and our poor kick chase, building pressure through the boot just isn't working. Hold onto the pill. Run, support, offload. Repeat.

 

[Jethro Tah]

I'm with Seb on this with a playmaking Barnes/Gits 10/12 combo. It keeps the defense guessing. Do they charge the gain line to meet either of them running or passing, or do they sit back for the kick? IMO the problem is not the 10/12 combo, it is the 15. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is best at 13 so who then for 15 in time for the 3N next year?

But I will add to Naza's comment "Run, support, offload. Repeat." in that SUPPORT should be in bold. Rugby is a team sport and I quote the age old saying "a champion team is better than a team of champions".

In the All Blacks v France game, Nonu crash balling did not win the game, it was because Carter had a blinder as did the other backs.

 

[Spook]

You don't need a powerful 12 if you have a few powerful runners in the back 3. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Ioane, and Sheperd?

 

[Scotty]

I'm starting to think Giteau plays better out of the 13 channel than anywhere else.

I'd like to see us have a 12/13 combo that interchange during the game (eg Giteau/Mortlock or Giteau/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)), rather than the current interchanging 10/12 option. Giteau seems to play his best when he is able to rove wider, and giving the 10 a short crash ball option with Giteau on the second line of attack wide will only serve to keep the defense guessing. Then you also have the option of Giteau playing closer and being able to distribute via kicking or passing to the wings (ala Ioane's try vs Wales).

It is no surprise that our attack has looked the best this year with Cooper at 10 and Giteau ranging wider. Giteau runs great lines, and sets himself in positions the other guys don't. See end of Perth game and the Welsh game to see our best attacking times.

This means we have to develop our 10 options, and have them prove they can control the game so Deans doesn't feel forced to have a swapping 10/12. I'm a big believer in QC (Quade Cooper)'s skills, but he has a long way to go in certain areas before being able to be trusted to play 10 in a RWC or even 3N. Barnes has a 'safer' game but certainly lacks the x-factor and is always crocked. We might be looking for one of the other young guys to put their hands up.

 

[fatprop]

Quade's kicking seemed to be a plan from Deans, Gits just looks so much better in wider channels.

We just had no interest in playing rugby from inside our half.

 

[naza]

I'm starting to think Giteau plays better out of the 13 channel than anywhere else.

Giteau loves nothing more than running sideways into the space that he should be putting his outside backs into. Gits at 13 ? That's Zavos territory. Prepare straitjackets !

So much of this keeps coming back to Giteau. How much will be sacrificed to compensate for his flaws ? How do you solve a problem like Maria ?

Its impossible for a young 10 to run the backline and control the game while Giteau still has a license to do stupid shit. How do you build pressure when Giteu takes ill advised drop goals ? How do you get outside backs charging onto the ball & running good lines when Giteau stands still waiting for the ball before crabbing sideways ? How do you preach patience and composure in attack when Giteau wastes possession, guaranteed once a game, with a cross field kick ? How do you draw and pass when Giteau throws long cut outs behind the outside runner straightening the attack ?

 

[Viking]

Lots of critisim on Gits. I do feel bad for the guy as he does give 100% every game. However i have to agree he has been a big part of the backline problems. Can we stick him at 12 already!.... Hopefully with the likes of To'omua, Barnes, Cooper and maybe a couple of other guys having good super 14 seasons will put the pressure on deans to move him. Who knows what might happen next year maybe gits will struggle to even get a starting spot if JOC (James O'Connor), lealifano, Will chambers or some other youngster plays 12 and carves it up all season. Maybe a new combo of Barnes n Cooper will be lethal. Theres plenty of options out their I just hope we find the right combo in time for the RWC.

 

[fatprop]

Wales legend hails Giteau and Cooper
November 30, 2009 - 2:00pm
Story by: AFP

Quade Cooper and Matt Giteau have been hailed for their masterclass performance against Wales.

Wales great Barry John said the Australia duo of Matt Giteau and Quade Cooper had provided his compatriots with a "masterclass" after steering the Wallabies' to a 33-12 Test victory.

Fly-half Giteau and inside centre Cooper were superb on Saturday as the Wallabies ended 2009 with an emphatic win over Wales at the Millennium Stadium.

The quality of their play was not lost on John, himself one of rugby union's greatest outside-halves.

"The Wallabies won this game for a number of reasons, but principally because they were so superior in the key 10-12 axis, where Matt Giteau and Quade Cooper totally and utterly ran the show," John wrote in his column for the Wales on Sunday newspaper.

"The duo displayed an invention, sense of purpose and quality of kicking which we (Wales) lacked," proclaimed John, the pinnacle of whose relatively brief yet brilliant six-year Test career came with his starring role on the victorious British and Irish Lions tour of New Zealand in 1971.

"In modern rugby, there is so much kicking that you have to have a couple of proper playmakers with real vision.

"That Australian duo were streets ahead of our own 10-12 axis (Stephen Jones and Jonathan Davies), controlling the pace, tempo, direction and flow of the game.

"When they chose to run, they did it expertly. Their variety of passing was splendid, their kicking pegged us back in the wrong areas of the field.

"Those two didn't just punt the ball aimlessly down field as so many others do, they kicked with precision and purpose.

 

[naza]

Sorry to hear that Barry John is now senile and suffering dementia. Quality kicking ? That'll do me.

 

[Scotty]

There kicking actually was good in this game, it was just done way too much, particularly at the start of the 2nd half (well more like the first 20minutes of the second half).

 

[disco]

So much of this keeps coming back to Giteau. How much will be sacrificed to compensate for his flaws ? How do you solve a problem like Maria ?

:lmao:

Yeah good one Naza, Giteau produced his best game last week & everytime he made an impact it was from 2nd receiver.

Leave him at 12 & let Barnes, Cooper & To'omua fight out the flyhalf position.