2016 Super Rugby Expansion

[Hell West & Crooked]

stats can be deceiving> how many teams did sa nz and aus have during these wonder years of aus rugby?

what wonder years?

 

[PaarlBok]

Whilst you are probably right, it doesn't change anything. SAs attempts to get out of the competition are well documented - and have not been abandoned. There was actually some very real speculation as to whether they would sign onto the last deal.

At the moment, the most likely fate of Australian Rugby is a decline into a semi-professional status becauise of the forces of a very competitive market for a relatively small sporting dollar. That is unless the ARU and NZRU can make the right decisions now - without each other, NZRU and ARU would likely both go broke.

I do not mind if the Saffas Go - I don't mind if they Stay.(as long as they cease the whinging), however, the NZRU and the ARU need to be planning for worst-case scenarios, not Best-Case.

As to what would happen if Rugby in Australia went into a steep decline?. The fact (that most people overseas do not seem to understand), is that the large majority of Australians would be unmoved - and many would not even notice - such is the dominance of other Football Codes here.

It is a far from unthinkable scenario.

Your solution is much easier then that. The way things are heading look like SA want more teams in the S15 because from a SA perspective the SupeRugby competition is changing with time into or CC competition. The more teams we get into it the more the impact on our CC and the less important it become. Over years Saru will have to chuck the CC and replace it with SupeRugby. All Aus have to do is to get more teams and play along. If they try to do it your way, its only going to hurt your rugby. Not long ago you fight to get an extra team (Rebels) , for some reason now you fight it? NZ is pretty much in the same position as SA. They have their NPC. You'd be surprise to see their support for NPC in stead of S15. The biggest reason their support at match is on the decline. Their supporters struggle to find a S15 team due to their central contracting and spreading players over their franchises. No way they'll let you in their NPC. Thats where their real supporters are. In SA we have provincial contracting meaning our supporters can attach to a S15 team and the reason we want more S15 teams. Aus should just play along otherwise you may find yourself out of the backdoor.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Whilst you are probably right, it doesn't change anything. SAs attempts to get out of the competition are well documented - and have not been abandoned. There was actually some very real speculation as to whether they would sign onto the last deal.

At the moment, the most likely fate of Australian Rugby is a decline into a semi-professional status becauise of the forces of a very competitive market for a relatively small sporting dollar. That is unless the ARU and NZRU can make the right decisions now - without each other, NZRU and ARU would likely both go broke.

I do not mind if the Saffas Go - I don't mind if they Stay.(as long as they cease the whinging), however, the NZRU and the ARU need to be planning for worst-case scenarios, not Best-Case.

As to what would happen if Rugby in Australia went into a steep decline?. The fact (that most people overseas do not seem to understand), is that the large majority of Australians would be unmoved - and many would not even notice - such is the dominance of other Football Codes here.

It is a far from unthinkable scenario.

The obvious alternative if SA upped and left would be to form a home/away league more than likely still called Super Rugby. All they would need to do would be to include the current 5 from each nation and possibly even look for two additional teams to make up the numbers. That's the only thing that would change. Participating in The Rugby Championship would still be a priority for SA Rugby and we'd still play the SpringBok's annually.

The thing that most SA fans and administrators probably don't take into account it that a Super Rugby competition without them, that is able to provide 6 games a week in viewer friendly time zones for their domestic markets would actually be worth a lot more to domestic broadcasters as in terms of draw, the SA based games are of little value outside SA. It could actually have a beneficial effect for Rugby in Australia.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Your solution is much easier then that. The way things are heading look like SA want more teams in the S15 because from a SA perspective the SupeRugby competition is changing with time into or CC competition. The more teams we get into it the more the impact on our CC and the less important it become. Over years Saru will have to chuck the CC and replace it with SupeRugby. All Aus have to do is to get more teams and play along. If they try to do it your way, its only going to hurt your rugby. Not long ago you fight to get an extra team (Rebels) , for some reason now you fight it? NZ is pretty much in the same position as SA. They have their NPC. You'd be surprise to see their support for NPC in stead of S15. The biggest reason their support at match is on the decline. Their supporters struggle to find a S15 team due to their central contracting and spreading players over their franchises. No way they'll let you in their NPC. Thats where their real supporters are. In SA we have provincial contracting meaning our supporters can attach to a S15 team and the reason we want more S15 teams. Aus should just play along otherwise you may find yourself out of the backdoor.

YOU HAVE ENTIRELY MISSED THE POINT.

1. Most Australians knew that we would struggle to field a 5th competitive Super Rugby Team at the time. The ARU however, knew that it needed a 5th team in the long run in order to stand any chance of keeping the Wallabies competitive over the next 10 -15 years, AND that it needed another 15-20 Super Rugby Contract Positions to keep those players we already had, earning their living in Australia.

2. The Rebels would never have been granted the last expansion position if not for the co-incidental adoption of the 'Conference Format'. There was Zero support for a southern spears team to play in the Australian conference - as would have been required.

3. I have not heard of any serious moves by NZ to obtain an additional team - I think they believe they have the measure about right, just now - and there will be no application for a further australian team for at least another Generation, in time.

4. It is not SANZAR's role - or goal - to provide an alternative to your currie cup.

5. I am not all that familiar with the Currie Cup (although I have heard it is struggling financially) I do know that the NPC is under significant financial stress - and that is in a market place where it has almost Zero competition in the New Zealand Domestic Sporting landscape...

We dont have such a competition in Australia primarily because there is NO MONEY in it. We would have one TOMORROW if someone was prepared to lose MILLIONS every year to stage it - (unfortunately, Mr. Murdoch has chosen to waste his dollars on Mungoe Ball). If we do get a 3rd tier comp in the next few years, it will be professional in only the most generous sense of the term...

The Brumbies started Super Rugby (was it last year)? with NO Sponsor - until Canberra Uni stepped in with a cut-price sponsorship... The Australian Super Rugby Conference this year has NO Sponsor whatsoever...

This is the reality. The Marketplace for Advertising and Sponsorship Dollars in Australia is FAR more competitive and complex than that of NZ or SA - although I don't doubt that Soccer takes a significant chunk of the available dollars in SA, as well...

"Aus should just play along otherwise you may find yourself out of the backdoor" This does not make alot of sense - (but no surprise there)... Regardless of what you might WANT, it appears that SANZAR are looking in specifically the opposite direction to SA - to Japan, the Pacific US, and to Argentina for their expansion. Thats just the way it is....

the question SANZAR ARE dealing with just now, is whether they feasibly can provide for a more attractive product by including countries outside the current 3, in order to package a game which is of greater value to potential broadcasters - and thereby increase their income. Whatever I think of that idea, it is likely to prove a more valuable option in these terms than having another SA Team to run last in the competition.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

The obvious alternative if SA upped and left would be to form a home/away league more than likely still called Super Rugby. All they would need to do would be to include the current 5 from each nation and possibly even look for two additional teams to make up the numbers. That's the only thing that would change. Participating in The Rugby Championship would still be a priority for SA Rugby and we'd still play the SpringBok's annually.

The thing that most SA fans and administrators probably don't take into account it that a Super Rugby competition without them, that is able to provide 6 games a week in viewer friendly time zones for their domestic markets would actually be worth a lot more to domestic broadcasters as in terms of draw, the SA based games are of little value outside SA. It could actually have a beneficial effect for Rugby in Australia.

Overall I agree with you WCR - except that it is The Championship, that the Boks are primarily trying to find their way out of... They have been told for now that they will never be admitted to the 6 Nations - but never is a long time - and I'm aware that efforts are ongoing to make this a reality...

There would definitely be some financial reverberations, but I do believe that the Pumas would largely fill any hole left by the Boks, and I believe that the Super Rugby Comp could easily absorb their departure... I know that a few of the companies that bankroll clubs in Japan would love to see their brands displayed through an involvement in Super Rugby.

I am not saying it a good idea - I am only saying that if SA were to leave, they may be very surprised by how little they are missed....

 

[PaarlBok]

YOU HAVE ENTIRELY MISSED THE POINT.

1. Most Australians knew that we would struggle to field a 5th competitive Super Rugby Team at the time. The ARU however, knew that it needed a 5th team in the long run in order to stand any chance of keeping the Wallabies competitive over the next 10 -15 years, AND that it needed another 15-20 Super Rugby Contract Positions to keep those players we already had, earning their living in Australia.

2. The Rebels would never have been granted the last expansion position if not for the co-incidental adoption of the 'Conference Format'. There was Zero support for a southern spears team to play in the Australian conference - as would have been required.

3. I have not heard of any serious moves by NZ to obtain an additional team - I think they believe they have the measure about right, just now - and there will be no application for a further australian team for at least another Generation, in time.

4. It is not SANZAR's role - or goal - to provide an alternative to your curry cup.

5. I am not all that familiar with the Currie Cup (although I have heard it is struggling financially) I do know that the NPC is under siginficant financial stress - and that is in a market place where it has almost Zero competition in the New Zealand Domestic Sports Market.

We dont have such a competition in Australia because there is NO MONEY in it. We would have one tomorrow if someone was prepared to lose MILLIONS every year to stage it - (unfortunately, Mr. Murdoch has chosen to waste his dollars on Mungoe Ball). If we do get a 3rd tier comp in the next few years, it will be professional in only the most generous sense of the term.

The Brumbies started super rugby one recent year with NO Sponsor - until Canberra Uni stepped in with a cut-price sponsorship. The Australian Super Rugby Conference this year has NO Sponsor whatsoever.

This is the reality. The Marketplace for Advertising and Sponsorship Dollars in Australia is FAR more competitive and complex than that of NZ or SA - although I don't doubt that Soccer takes a significant chunk of the available market in SA, as well.

"Aus should just play along otherwise you may find yourself out of the backdoor" This does not make alot of sense - (but no surprise there). Regardless of what you might WANT, it appears that SANZAR are looking in specifically the opposite direction to SA - to Japan, the Pacific US, and to Argentina for their expansion. Thats just the way it is..

the question SANZAR ARE dealing with just now, is whether they feasibly can provide for a more attractive product by including countries outside the current 3, in order to package a game which is of greater value to potential broadcasters - and thereby increase their income. Whatever I think of that idea, it is likely to prove a more valuable option in these terms than having another SA Team to run last in the competition.

Look like you only understand money and not rugby culture. Waiste of time to try to explain this basic principle of the game. Your Sanzar obvious dont include SA.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Haha - You're a funny guy.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

dude having a 5th team is benefiting the kiwis and saffas as much as its benefiting us at the moment if you consider the current (and historical) rosters of the force and rebels
their teams are full of players who will jump at the chance to go back to sa or nz the second a test jersey is offered to them
either that or they hang around till they get an offer to go to france
im not saying we discard our 5th team> im saying the spots that are currently being filled by kiwis and saffas could be better used>
im looking at this from a marketing point of view- the provinces are businesses and this is an opportunity to reach a 'blue ocean' of market share
-assuming you wouldnt lose anything in skill level- which if recruited properly i see no problem in this

I would say Jay-C however, that I think the idea of having an 'EXILES' team playing in a Super XV competition is a fascinating idea - a Team which has a single base - but is made up largely of Foreign Players could be a really interesting option...

Imagine a Club made up largely of Japanese, Pacific Islander, Argentinian and Local Players - playing out of (I am going to suggest) Port Morseby (because Mungoe Ball is currently their national game) and providing a place for all those Argentinian talents you have spoken of... Perhaps an EXILES Club would not be allowed to sign SANZAR players - or perhaps only 1 from each country - whatever... (maybe none, to keep an even playing field)

They could play 60 % of home games in PNG and the other 40% elsewhere... They could just as easily be based in Samoa, or Tokyo, or Hawaii - but there would need to be a large potential Broadcast base - and a large crowd base - that is why PNG comes to mind....

 

[PaarlBok]

Haha - You're a funny guy.

I am not funny Boet, I dont talk cheap, if you want to come here and make statements make sure about your facts. Go have a look at the stats of S15 viewers and attendances and think again. Only the Reds base can compare with SA attendances. Sanzar is about three rugby nations who needs each other to give a product. The Kings beat both the Force and Rebels and nearly beat the Brumbies in their debut season, if that dont tell you something about SA rugby, then nothing will. For your attention.

2013 figures:
Average Total Highest Lowest Country
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=472 - Western Force 12,164 24,327 12,784 11,543 Aus
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=548 - Melbourne Rebels 12,391 37,173 13,179 11,902 Aus
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=137 - New South Wales 13,812 55,246 16,429 11,206 Aus
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=150 - ACT Brumbies 15,721 62,883 20,027 12,063 Aus
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=136 - Queensland Reds 30,476 121,904 35,801 26,709 Aus 16,913
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=154 - Wellington Hurricanes 11,908 47,633 15,103 8,966 NZ
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=153 - Otago Highlanders 13,033 52,133 17,511 7,852 NZ
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=151 - Canterbury Crusaders 13,958 27,915 14,400 13,515 NZ
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=152 - Waikato Chiefs 13,965 41,896 15,203 11,893 NZ
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=149 - Auckland Blues 24,205 72,615 31,014 16,489 NZ 15,414
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=473 - Cheetahs 18,725 56,176 26,623 14,560 SA
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=155 - Natal Sharks 24,435 97,741 28,272 20,147 SA
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=148 - Northern Bulls 34,729 69,457 44,272 25,185 SA
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=541 - Southern Kings 35,926 107,777 45,974 30,000 SA
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/btb_team.php?CompID=423&TeamID=147 - Western Stormers 40,018 120,054 47,263 35,073 SA 30,767
Total 20,728 994,930

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Look like you only understand money and not rugby culture. Waiste of time to try to explain this basic principle of the game. Your Sanzar obvious dont include SA.

Be under no illusions PaarlBok - I am very familair with SA Rugby Culture... it is generally a "We get our own way. or else we take our Bat and Go Home".. type of culture... Do not presume to take the high road here.

 

[PaarlBok]

Be under no illusions PaarlBok - I am very familair with SA Rugby Culture. it is generally a "We get our own way. or else we take our Bat and Go Home".. type of culture. Do not presume to take the high road here.

Thats your opinion and maybe something we should have done a long time ago. Late Louis Luyt played a massive role in not only getting SupeRugby going but also running the Rugby World Cup profitable. So never underestimate what the Saffers did in getting the modern game where it is today.

However old school Saffer rugby lovers like myself wont mind one bit if they can take rugby back to the amateur days where we played our Currie Cup and having long tours and taking rugby to our country sides. Thats where you need to grow the game to get it into the structures and values.

Nowadays the NH is running away with all the top players and even hurting our younger talents. Thats what money did to our rugby and Saru not protecting the heartbeat of the game.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

I am not funny Boet, I dont talk cheap, if you want to come here and make statements make sure about your facts. Go have a look at the stats of S15 viewers and attendances and think again. Only the Reds base can compare with SA attendances. Sanzar is about three rugby nations who needs each other to give a product. The Kings beat both the Force and Rebels and nearly beat the Brumbies in their debut season, if that dont tell you something about SA rugby, then nothing will. For your attention.

Although its a bit difficult to read, I would not doubt any of its content... That does not however mean that anyone in New Zealand or Australia will sit up til the early hours of the morning to watch the Bulls play the Sharks... They just don't...

These games have little following outside South Africa.

If you really think SANZAR " is about three rugby nations who needs each other to give a product" - which is a reasonable position to take, why has the SARU spent so much time and effort trying to get out of it?

My point is very simple - The ARU and the NZRU are unlikely to give any support in the near future, to any initiative which would only serve to increase the impact should the SARU decide to withdraw... You are ignoring the fact that Trust between the SARU and the other two Unions are at an all-time Low, and that members of the NZRU had to fly to Joh'burg a couple of years ago just to get assurance that the SARU was not about to scuttle their most recent Broadcast Rights deal...

They understandably want to ensure that a Rainy Day sometime in the future will not make the whole structure collapse...

A 6th SA Super Rugby Team is not impossible - I think its highly undesirable, but thats just my opinion. The fact remains that under YOUR definition of what makes a 6th Team a reasonabLe option, then that team would likely go to NZ - not to SA...

Basically, get your weakest teams off the bottom of the table before you go asking for more places, and meanwhile SANZAR is going to look at the option of broadening the competition - like it, or not.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Thats your opinion and maybe something we should have done a long time ago. Late Louis Luyt played a massive role in not only getting SupeRugby going but also running the Rugby World Cup profitable. So never underestimate what the Saffers did in getting the modern game where it is today.

However old school Saffer rugby lovers like myself wont mind one bit if they can take rugby back to the amateur days where we played our Currie Cup and having long tours and taking rugby to our country sides. Thats where you need to grow the game to get it into the structures and values.

Nowadays the NH is running away with all the top players and even hurting our younger talents. Thats what money did to our rugby and Saru not protecting the heartbeat of the game.

Ahhhh.... the good old days... South Africa in the 1970s... Yep - that's the way.

Didn't you also invent the World Cup?... and the Internet?... and Equal Rights, and, and...

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Overall I agree with you WCR - except that it is The Championship, that the Boks are primarily trying to find their way out of. They have been told for now that they will never be admitted to the 6 Nations - but never is a long time - and I'm aware that efforts are ongoing to make this a reality.

There would definitely be some financial reverberations, but I do believe that the Pumas would largely fill any hole left by the Boks, and I believe that the Super Rugby Comp could easily absorb their departure. I know that a few of the companies that bankroll clubs in Japan would love to see their brands displayed through an involvement in Super Rugby.

I am not saying it a good idea - I am only saying that if SA were to leave, they may be very surprised by how little they are missed..

There's very little chance of the 6 Nations ever expanding beyond its current format. Every time the SARU has made noises regarding their options elsewhere the one consistent element has remained that while they would leave Super Rugby, they didn't want to let go of the opportunity to play in the Tri-Nations now Rugby Championship.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Thats your opinion and maybe something we should have done a long time ago. Late Louis Luyt played a massive role in not only getting SupeRugby going but also running the Rugby World Cup profitable. So never underestimate what the Saffers did in getting the modern game where it is today.

However old school Saffer rugby lovers like myself wont mind one bit if they can take rugby back to the amateur days where we played our Currie Cup and having long tours and taking rugby to our country sides. Thats where you need to grow the game to get it into the structures and values.

Nowadays the NH is running away with all the top players and even hurting our younger talents. Thats what money did to our rugby and Saru not protecting the heartbeat of the game.

And without the money generated by Super Rugby, SA like both Aus and NZ would be nothing more than development nations for NH clubs.

As for Louis Luyt and the advent of professional rugby. I suggest you read up on how it came about. Out current format only came as a reaction to the movements of the World Rugby Corp. based out of Sydney. He likes the administrators here, found themselves in a position where they had to do something of otherwise lose their grip on the game.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

You might also recall he almost blew it - at one stage having a BSkyB deal on the table, and No Players with which to honour it - Luyt received a Solid Reaming in Joh'burg from Sam Chisholm, for fecking it up...

Luyt huffed and puffed about 'no Springbok' player would ever be involved" - only to then be told by his Captain that virtually the whole team had signed with WRC - as had Sean Fitzpatrick's All Blacks - with SF and Francois Pienaar being amonst the primary recruiters...

The current format was put together by the Board Members of 3 Southern Hemisphere Rugby Unions (who amazingly (in today's terms) did not have any contractual relationship with any players at the time...

The Board Members from the NZRU - and the ARU who were involved with putting it together, might well take exception to your crediting it to Louis Luyt... But then... that is the way it is done in South Africa.

 

[USARugger]

Nowadays the NH is running away with all the top players and even hurting our younger talents. Thats what money did to our rugby and Saru not protecting the heartbeat of the game.

Mind expanding on this? The only South African players of note that I know of who are going overseas are: Andries Bekker, Juandré Kruger, Morné Steyn, Bryan Habana, JP Pietersen and Zane Kirchner. Bekker and Habana are both getting on in age and looking towards retirement, they also both have replacements knocking on the door. Steyn is getting on in years and is hardly a top fly-half in South Africa any longer. Kirchner is old and just plain not good. Pietersen and Kruger I would not want to lose at this time but it isn't like South Africa is hurting for talent, to be honest.

You see a lot of exports from SA primarily because SA literally produces more talent than any other nation right now in terms of sheer volume. I would hardly say that any NH teams are "running away with all the top players" unless you're talking about the top players from the last two generations. If you wouldn't mind naming some of the "younger talents" that these NH clubs are "hurting" that'd be great.

Your argument about viewership and ticket sales also entirely ignores the currency exchange rate of the South African Rand. Perhaps you are the one who needs to get their "facts" in order before you do some more "straight talking"..

The most expensive ticket to the Stormers v. Reds game costs R130.00, to the Reds v. Blues is $70.00 and to any Chiefs game is $52.50.

When you factor in the current conversion rates for currency this R130.00 ticket is worth as much as $13.81 Australian Dollars (19.7% of a Reds ticket) or $16.75 New Zealand Dollars (32% of a Chiefs ticket). So every ticket bought to see the Reds is worth 5 tickets to see the Stormers, every ticket to see the Chiefs is worth 3 tickets to see the Stormers.

Even the median ticket prices for the Force and Rebels are worth two to four of the best and most expensive tickets to see the Stormers.

Yes, South African franchises draw the greatest viewership and attendance numbers in the competition. Your dollar is also weak as fucking anything and by virtue of this the actual monetary contribution differences between the three nations constituting SANZAR are not nearly as wide as you appear to believe they are.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

There's very little chance of the 6 Nations ever expanding beyond its current format. Every time the SARU has made noises regarding their options elsewhere the one consistent element has remained that while they would leave Super Rugby, they didn't want to let go of the opportunity to play in the Tri-Nations now Rugby Championship.

WCR: In the short term, I believe You are right - but there is nothing sacred about the 6 Nations, and as soon as the $$ dictated an expansion, it would expand... As things stand at the moment, I reckon even Qatar could get into the 6 Nations if they went about it the right way...

It is hard to make an argument that SA has not tried to leave the Tri-Nations because they have... The only mistake they have made is being unable to convince the other 6 that there is enough in it for them, in order to make it worthwhile withstanding all the 6N supporter backlash.

I am not saying it will happen soon - only that it can happen - and some in the SARU want it to. And that is fair enough.

 

[USARugger]

One thing that makes the 6N tournament special is that a spectator can realistically afford to travel to every one on their home nation's matches without mortgaging their house. If SA joined the outrage would be unbelievable.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

One thing that makes the 6N tournament special is that a spectator can realistically afford to travel to every one on their home nation's matches without mortgaging their house. If SA joined the outrage would be unbelievable.

It's a fair point, but like most things in Life, it is rarely so Cut & Dried...

Last time it came up, (I don't think many seriously believed it would happen), but nevertheless, there was still little vocal opposition... Some maintained they would be better off with SA than Italy...

I have always felt that we need to keep Northern Hemisphere - Southern Hemisphere games to a minimum... All Black - Wallaby Tests used to sell out in 2 hours in the 80s & 90s - they don't anymore... That special sense of occassion is hard to maintain in a professional era.

Even allowing for that, I often have to fight the inclination to wish the Boks would go about their business elsewhere...

Still, they are in the Championship for Now, and that is fine.
After all, thats just the way it is.