some good ideas there , back 3 should be good for 20s , bit light on the centres but like u said wouldnt be surprised if they moved kellaway to centre , 10 i think young lad from the reds and deegen will be the contenders, backrow we dnt have alot of big bustling back rowers but hard workers, maybe there might be some surprises from the other teams
2015 IRB Junior Rugby World Cup - Italy
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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some good ideas there , back 3 should be good for 20s , bit light on the centres but like u said wouldnt be surprised if they moved kellaway to centre , 10 i think young lad from the reds and deegen will be the contenders, backrow we dnt have alot of big bustling back rowers but hard workers, maybe there might be some surprises from the other teams
T
TOCC
Guest
I expect Magnay to play at centre as well, thats where Queensland Country had him during the NRC
Aus 20s are never going to match SA nor England for size due to their production factory of big boppas. That has been case for some years and I expect will continue we all know that. But that doesnt mean we have to fret continually about our "lighter framed" kids.
I have seen some of these kids that are in the frame for Aus 20s selection perform very well against hardened men in NRC comp.including Korcyk and Croke and Kellaway who played in semi finals.
There are others as well so I am sure they dont think of themselves as inferior beings on the paddock. Sure physics will play a big part if you want to play a one dimensional game with boppas but we have to be and play smarter than that and we can.
Pick the "smartest fittest" boys and a few in positions that are vulnerable.
A judgement of error last year on one significant play cost Aussies a try , momentum and possibly victory over the eventual champions.
Very smart rugby is required for 80 minutes at a time.
I have seen some of these kids that are in the frame for Aus 20s selection perform very well against hardened men in NRC comp.including Korcyk and Croke and Kellaway who played in semi finals.
There are others as well so I am sure they dont think of themselves as inferior beings on the paddock. Sure physics will play a big part if you want to play a one dimensional game with boppas but we have to be and play smarter than that and we can.
Pick the "smartest fittest" boys and a few in positions that are vulnerable.
A judgement of error last year on one significant play cost Aussies a try , momentum and possibly victory over the eventual champions.
Very smart rugby is required for 80 minutes at a time.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
A squad size of 28 goes to the Jnr RWC.
Previously the functional breakdown of the young Men in Gold squad was:
2014 Squad (from Wikipedia):
Prop: 5
Hooker: 2
Lock: 3
Loose Forward: 5
Halfback: 2
Flyhalf: 2
Centre: 4
Back Three: 5
Pigs: 15
Princess: 13
Squad: 28
2013 Squad (From G&GR Blog archive):
Prop: 4
Hooker: 3
Lock: 3
Loose Forward: 5
Halfback: 3
Flyhalf: 3
Centre: 2
Back Three: 5
Pigs: 15
Princess: 13
Squad: 28
@Sideline Eye suggests that the selectors are likely to follow a 3 hooker squad like 2013, which would be good for connections of the 6 hookers at National Champs, and the @Sideline Eyes are possibly checking passports, and annual leave and bank balances just in case.
Tournament play is often about survival of the fittest, and consequentially selectors usually look for players who can play more than one position over a specialist. The hooker that can prop, or can play OSF. A prop that can play LHP or THP, or hooker. A lock that can play #8 or BSF. A halfback that can play #10. #10's that can play #15, Centres that can play wing etc.
In addition to @Lee Grant's fine preview above, I'd think the selectors will be looking for those who can play multiple positions. They will also be looking for a left foot kicker, both from the tee and the hand. It will be essential that we can bank on 3 points for any penalty given 45 metres (centrefield, or 40 from the side) from the posts (if we want to take the points), or a 5 metre attacking lineout for any penalty awarded anywhere in the attacking 1/2, not to mention a Red zone exit kicker that can reliably return the Gilbert to the far side of the 10 metre line (if not 1/2 way).
Previously the functional breakdown of the young Men in Gold squad was:
2014 Squad (from Wikipedia):
Prop: 5
Hooker: 2
Lock: 3
Loose Forward: 5
Halfback: 2
Flyhalf: 2
Centre: 4
Back Three: 5
Pigs: 15
Princess: 13
Squad: 28
2013 Squad (From G&GR Blog archive):
Prop: 4
Hooker: 3
Lock: 3
Loose Forward: 5
Halfback: 3
Flyhalf: 3
Centre: 2
Back Three: 5
Pigs: 15
Princess: 13
Squad: 28
@Sideline Eye suggests that the selectors are likely to follow a 3 hooker squad like 2013, which would be good for connections of the 6 hookers at National Champs, and the @Sideline Eyes are possibly checking passports, and annual leave and bank balances just in case.
Tournament play is often about survival of the fittest, and consequentially selectors usually look for players who can play more than one position over a specialist. The hooker that can prop, or can play OSF. A prop that can play LHP or THP, or hooker. A lock that can play #8 or BSF. A halfback that can play #10. #10's that can play #15, Centres that can play wing etc.
In addition to @Lee Grant's fine preview above, I'd think the selectors will be looking for those who can play multiple positions. They will also be looking for a left foot kicker, both from the tee and the hand. It will be essential that we can bank on 3 points for any penalty given 45 metres (centrefield, or 40 from the side) from the posts (if we want to take the points), or a 5 metre attacking lineout for any penalty awarded anywhere in the attacking 1/2, not to mention a Red zone exit kicker that can reliably return the Gilbert to the far side of the 10 metre line (if not 1/2 way).
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Report from behind enemy lines - RBS 6Nations U20 results:
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/u20/under_20_6_nations_match_centre.php
Round 1
Italy 15 - Ireland 47
Wales 21 - England 15
France 47 - Scotland 6
Round 2
Scotland 36 - Wales 34
Ireland 37 - France 20
England 61 - Italy 0
Round 3
Ireland 14 - England 19
Scotland 45 - Italy 0
France 27 Wales 5
Round 4
Italy 10 - France 40
England 26 - Scotland 11
Wales 19 - Ireland 12
Games to come:
Round 5 (20/3/15)
Italy vs Wales
Scotland vs Ireland
England vs France
Table:
France P4 W3 L1 PF134 PA58 Pts 6
England P4 W3 L1 PF121 PA75 Pts 6
Ireland P4 W2 L2 PF110 PA73 Pts 4
Scotland P4 W2 L2 PF98 PA107 Pts 4
Wales P4 W2 L2 PF79 PA90 Pts 4
Italy P4 W0 L4 PF25 PA193 Pts 0
Gold Medal game this weekend ENG v FRA.
Big scrap coming up for the Bronze.
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/u20/under_20_6_nations_match_centre.php
Round 1
Italy 15 - Ireland 47
Wales 21 - England 15
France 47 - Scotland 6
Round 2
Scotland 36 - Wales 34
Ireland 37 - France 20
England 61 - Italy 0
Round 3
Ireland 14 - England 19
Scotland 45 - Italy 0
France 27 Wales 5
Round 4
Italy 10 - France 40
England 26 - Scotland 11
Wales 19 - Ireland 12
Games to come:
Round 5 (20/3/15)
Italy vs Wales
Scotland vs Ireland
England vs France
Table:
France P4 W3 L1 PF134 PA58 Pts 6
England P4 W3 L1 PF121 PA75 Pts 6
Ireland P4 W2 L2 PF110 PA73 Pts 4
Scotland P4 W2 L2 PF98 PA107 Pts 4
Wales P4 W2 L2 PF79 PA90 Pts 4
Italy P4 W0 L4 PF25 PA193 Pts 0
Gold Medal game this weekend ENG v FRA.
Big scrap coming up for the Bronze.
Getwithme
Cyril Towers (30)
Conrad Quick played a lot of #12 in his schoolboys days.
Backline may look like this:
9.Short
10.Deegan
11. Kellaway
12. Quick/Newsome?
13. Magnay
14. Hutchinson/Jones
15. Placid.
3 returning in that backline along with a strong 9/10 relationship. Deegan,Newsome and Jones all handy with the boot also.
Backline may look like this:
9.Short
10.Deegan
11. Kellaway
12. Quick/Newsome?
13. Magnay
14. Hutchinson/Jones
15. Placid.
3 returning in that backline along with a strong 9/10 relationship. Deegan,Newsome and Jones all handy with the boot also.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Yeah we all know that unfortunately rugby roo - and we should remember that if we don't do well and are dominated physically by the usual two suspects (should we meet the second).
We should not get on the keyboard and condemn the selectors or coaches some of whom are both, if physicality is the difference.
The other thing to consider before we pound out the words is the superior junior programmes they have in England and the RSA.
But I'm being negative: let's hope in our Aussie way we can skirt around the problems as you suggest. We used to be able to do that in the past and be contenders, but it is a lot more difficult now despite the improvement in our programmes recently.
.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Newsome is an outside centre or winger.
I wish we had more comments about the WA and Vic backs. The ACT lads were not so good in the one match I saw from them.
.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
ARU National U20 2015 Draw is here: http://myrugby.rugby.com.au/myrugby/competitions/external/drawresult.asp?comp=10759&OrgID=000001
19 March 3pm Aust BarBars v Tonga
21 March 1pm Qld v Aust BarBars
21 March 3:15pm NSW v Tonga
23 March 1pm NSW v Aust BarBars
23 March 3:15 pm Qld v Fiji
25 March 1pm Fiji v Aust BarBars
25 March 3:15 pm QLD v NSW
All games at Viking Park
Side point: It is interesting that RugbyLink is not being used to record the U20 National Championship draw, results and team sheets. Using RugbyLink for Player Registration and Competition management was apparently mandated by ARU as part of the "registration and insurance Business Model changes" introduced by the ARU GM Participation. This caused plenty of teeth gnashing and dummy spitting across Rugbydom, yet the tournament management tool that the ARU use seems identical to whatever the NSW Shute Shield folk have been doing for a while, and it looks nothing like RugbyLink.
19 March 3pm Aust BarBars v Tonga
21 March 1pm Qld v Aust BarBars
21 March 3:15pm NSW v Tonga
23 March 1pm NSW v Aust BarBars
23 March 3:15 pm Qld v Fiji
25 March 1pm Fiji v Aust BarBars
25 March 3:15 pm QLD v NSW
All games at Viking Park
Side point: It is interesting that RugbyLink is not being used to record the U20 National Championship draw, results and team sheets. Using RugbyLink for Player Registration and Competition management was apparently mandated by ARU as part of the "registration and insurance Business Model changes" introduced by the ARU GM Participation. This caused plenty of teeth gnashing and dummy spitting across Rugbydom, yet the tournament management tool that the ARU use seems identical to whatever the NSW Shute Shield folk have been doing for a while, and it looks nothing like RugbyLink.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Thanks HJ - I couldn't find that anywhere.
So that's how they are organising it? I couldn't work out how they would format it.
The visitors are playing two games each; the Baas play four and NSW and Qld play three each. That's seven matches.
I'm guessing that the Championship will be decided on the games between the three Aussie teams and the other results don't count except maybe as a tie-breaker.
The first game by itself is a good idea and I suppose that it's to make up for the disadvantage that the Aus Baas have of not being able to train together.
I'm guessing they will arrive a day or two before the Tonga game and play that match as the other Aussie teams are arriving. It makes a lot of sense.
If there is a tie-breaker that game probably won't count.
But more likely the tie breaker will based on for and against in the three games involving the Aussie teams.
.
So that's how they are organising it? I couldn't work out how they would format it.
The visitors are playing two games each; the Baas play four and NSW and Qld play three each. That's seven matches.
I'm guessing that the Championship will be decided on the games between the three Aussie teams and the other results don't count except maybe as a tie-breaker.
The first game by itself is a good idea and I suppose that it's to make up for the disadvantage that the Aus Baas have of not being able to train together.
I'm guessing they will arrive a day or two before the Tonga game and play that match as the other Aussie teams are arriving. It makes a lot of sense.
If there is a tie-breaker that game probably won't count.
But more likely the tie breaker will based on for and against in the three games involving the Aussie teams.
.
Sideline Eye
Darby Loudon (17)
Hugh, no counting of chickens in Chez Sideline. And our connection to the team is merely thrilled to be in the coop with the other chickens, with little expectation of anything more (typically self-deprecating). Nevertheless, we've been taken by surprise in the past, so might do as you suggest, just in case (!)
Also, Wikipedia seems to be wrong re 2014 squad. Based on this website (http://www.rugby.com.au/Teams/AustralianU20s.aspx), there were three hookers selected for the U20 squad in 2014.
The hookers in the squad in 2014 were:
- Alifeleti Kaitu'u (South Magpies, WA)
- Harry Scoble (Uni of WA)
- Tevita Vea (Randwick)
Perhaps this is the 'extended squad', as there are 33 players in this squad photo and team list, and only 2 hookers actually went on tour?
Based on Panda's comment above:
QLD
Zac Shanks
Josh Webb
Jake Lyon
NSW
Folau Fainga'a
Ed Craig
BARBARIANS
Connal McInerney
Phil Bradford
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Correct - Kaitu'u (I think) was injured and went home and that brought Matt Sandell over to NZ. He was a prop but used to throw to the lineout sometimes for Joeys. Kaitu'u was from Qld.
Vea couldn't hit the side of a barn with his throws.
.
Sideline Eye
Darby Loudon (17)
So, who are the Qld squad hookers - Lyon and Webb? What about Zac Shanks? And while Mafi is injured, will he be okay by the National Championships in Canberra, or possibly fit for selection after Canberra and in time for the Oceania comp and then World Cup U20s? By the chat here, sounds like Alex Mafi and Folau Fainga'a would be the hookers of choice, if fit. Are there others in rehab who may come into contention following the National comp? Obviously the National coaching team will want to take the best players.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Before a ball is kicked in the nationals you have to think of Fainga'a and McInerney as the two principal hookers for the Aussie team.
The others I know: Mafi, Craig and Bradford were all at school last year which means they are at a disadvantage in rugby maturity.
The ones I don't know don't have a rugby pedigree which doesn't mean to say they are not better at the minute than they used to be, but chances are they are at a disadvantage also (in our deliberations, at least).
However a couple of games in Canberra will make pages of this thread superfluous.
But what else are we going to do?
.
The others I know: Mafi, Craig and Bradford were all at school last year which means they are at a disadvantage in rugby maturity.
The ones I don't know don't have a rugby pedigree which doesn't mean to say they are not better at the minute than they used to be, but chances are they are at a disadvantage also (in our deliberations, at least).
However a couple of games in Canberra will make pages of this thread superfluous.
But what else are we going to do?
.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
What is happening with the Hooker position is being played out in nearly all other positions in the squad, with even the current uninjured folk only one training or game accident away from joining Team Rehab and missing out consideration for the Jnr RWC.
Some folk will be the selectors first choices for a particular position, for whatever reason or bias that particular selector may have for the various skills they want a player to exhibit for that spot. If one of those get injured, then they will invite the next cab off the rank to have a go. That cab driver may end up grasping that opportunity and overtake the lad in Team Rehab as the preferred option, but as I like to remind people, in the erudite words of Eric Rush's father, it is only the opinion of one bloke and that could change at any time.
In extremely general terms, the just turned 20 year old player who would generally be in their second year out of school, and second year in some form of academy or elite colts programme is nearly always going to be a better candidate for a gig in a Under 20 competition over the 18 turning 19 year old player who is in their first year out of school, and their first year in an elite rugby development programme.
Slight exception for QLD players who sometimes finish school as 17 year olds and are in their second year in a post school more or less professional elite professional development programme as 18 turning 19 year olds. The 2012 (may have been 2011) England Under 18 Team that toured here were a significant step up in terms of physical maturity over the Australian Under 19 team they played in Sydney, most of whom were in their first year out of school. The Poms had been in professional rugby club academies since they were U16 and as Under 18's they monstered the Aussie U19s.
TLDR: The greater the time out of school in a pro/semi pro academy environment, the greater the chances of selection for the National U20 team*.
* An exception to this principle are those rare few possessing The Kellaway factor.
Some folk will be the selectors first choices for a particular position, for whatever reason or bias that particular selector may have for the various skills they want a player to exhibit for that spot. If one of those get injured, then they will invite the next cab off the rank to have a go. That cab driver may end up grasping that opportunity and overtake the lad in Team Rehab as the preferred option, but as I like to remind people, in the erudite words of Eric Rush's father, it is only the opinion of one bloke and that could change at any time.
In extremely general terms, the just turned 20 year old player who would generally be in their second year out of school, and second year in some form of academy or elite colts programme is nearly always going to be a better candidate for a gig in a Under 20 competition over the 18 turning 19 year old player who is in their first year out of school, and their first year in an elite rugby development programme.
Slight exception for QLD players who sometimes finish school as 17 year olds and are in their second year in a post school more or less professional elite professional development programme as 18 turning 19 year olds. The 2012 (may have been 2011) England Under 18 Team that toured here were a significant step up in terms of physical maturity over the Australian Under 19 team they played in Sydney, most of whom were in their first year out of school. The Poms had been in professional rugby club academies since they were U16 and as Under 18's they monstered the Aussie U19s.
TLDR: The greater the time out of school in a pro/semi pro academy environment, the greater the chances of selection for the National U20 team*.
* An exception to this principle are those rare few possessing The Kellaway factor.
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