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2013 IRB Junior World Championship - France

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
You're right about the cost but surely the development of the game is worth the investment. My point is not about making this current squad better it's about an open and transparent process of selection. What would you say to a player not in the squad who asked 'how do I make the Australian 20's?'. The answer 'you had to be in the selection group last year', is baffling and discouraging. It underlines the belief among many that unless you are 'recognised' by the age of 17 your chances of going far in the game are greatly diminished.

I think the Academies exist for the benefit of developing young rugby players, not to select the U20 RWC team.

I think a reasonable number of players get discovered later. The reality is however that excellent players were generally excellent juniors. There are obviously exceptions but on the most part that is true.

Good young players can get recognised at their clubs regardless of their junior pedigree. A standout player will generally be promoted up the grades (or from Colts to Grade etc.).

I think you could ask the same question about 'how do I get a Super Rugby contract?' This is not a transparent process but I don't think there is anything wrong with it. The reality is you need to play good rugby and get noticed by the people selecting the squad.
 

Blackers13

Syd Malcolm (24)
I think the Academies exist for the benefit of developing young rugby players, not to select the U20 RWC team.

I think a reasonable number of players get discovered later. The reality is however that excellent players were generally excellent juniors. There are obviously exceptions but on the most part that is true.

Good young players can get recognised at their clubs regardless of their junior pedigree. A standout player will generally be promoted up the grades (or from Colts to Grade etc.).

I think you could ask the same question about 'how do I get a Super Rugby contract?' This is not a transparent process but I don't think there is anything wrong with it. The reality is you need to play good rugby and get noticed by the people selecting the squad.
The reverse is also true, plenty of excellent juniors fall back to the pack and disappear out of the game. My point, once again, is about process. Rugby needs to take a good long look at it's development structures if it is going to attract and more importantly retain, the very best talent that may reach playing maturity at varying stages.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The reverse is also true, plenty of excellent juniors fall back to the pack and disappear out of the game. My point, once again, is about process. Rugby needs to take a good long look at it's development structures if it is going to attract and more importantly retain, the very best talent that may reach playing maturity at varying stages.

That is the process though. You identify the talented young juniors from various rep teams and you put them into academies. Some might not work out but plenty will.

Your success rate is surely going to be higher if you pick people who excelled when they were young rather than players who didn't who you have a hunch might be better when they're a bit older.

I'm not really sure what you're proposing as a potential solution to the issue you've identified.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
The problem is it is self perpetuating.
The 20's are sourced from the Schoolboys,who were sourced from the 16's.
Not enough fresh cattle is introduced along the way to suggest it is working.
If you were not an early developer at 15, then most of your opportunities have just disappeared.
Yes there are exceptions to the rule.But the rule is fucked if you ask me.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Ryan09 may have some valid points about the process that are perhaps worth exploring.

From what I can see from this thread, the process kicked off sometime last December with a NSW and QLD "train on" squad and detatchments in "other states".

They had two sessions in December and trained through Jan and Feb.

A NSW team, QLD Team and Barbarian team was formed with the intention that each team would play the others twice.

On 18 Feb there was the first of three 4 day camps for around 50 players. Maybe this is where the first round of games (from above) were played.

The second camp (52 players) was held around March 14.

On April 8, the final 4 day camp for 50 players was held.

The final squad of 28 was publicly announced on 18 April.

Of this final 28 person squad, 19 were from Academies, 9 were not Academy boys.
17 of the 28 were NGS graduates, 11 were not NGS graduates.
10 of the 28 had been at JRWC 2011 (2 for other countries).
6 of the 28 were from 2012 Aust Schoolboys.
The Aust 7's boys were excluded (rightly or wrongly) from consideration.
Not all of the Final Squad were at all the camps (minor injury perhaps, or maybe the selectors were happy with the candidate, and wanted to see more from other contenders).

The camps held from Feb onwards (50 players) to whittle them down to the final 28 seems to be a rather transparent and fair process.

The issue appears to surround how does Player X get into the December - February train on squads before the first cut to the 50 (or thereabouts) for the final 3 camps. I'm assuming that there would have been around 40 - 50 in Sydney and Brisbane with probably 5-10 in ACT, Melbourne and Perth. Initial Possibles numbering around 100-130 players.

If it was solely on the basis of Invitations sent out from the centre then maybe Ryan09 has a point about a lack of transparancy.
Were all Clubs asked to nominate who they thought should be looked at during the initial December/January sessions?

Should the Clubs not take some of the responsibility to be aware of the process and actively promote their better players for selection and invitation, and if the lad is seriously good but overlooked due to the lack of previous form with Schoolboys, GPS, NGS or whatever, then they should leave no stone unturned in lobbying their nearest ARU Talent scout, ARU HPU, grade coach, club president whatever it takes to get that lad in the initial 100-130.

Reviewing the first 6 pages of this thread, there doesn't seem to have been much despair about Player X or Y missing out on the various lists for the last 3 camps. If the kid is seriously that good (and uninjured), they would be tearing it up in Colts 1 or Grade somewhere.

Rugby is a small community and word spreads very quickly. I think that the "powers that be" would find out pretty fast that there is a smokie in [insert club name] Colts 1 who should be looked at.

The point that residential camps cost money is absolutely correct.

However, the marginal cost of a few extra players attending the intitial training sessions in December/Jan would not be much, and any kids who get additional benefit from the skills development from those camps will ultimately increase the skill base of their club team when they return.

The whole thing about clubs being involved in the initial nomination process would actually require some serious honesty from the Club Coach to the player about their actual prospects of higher selection. There are many in the current generation of kids and Parents who have never received any genuinely honest skills assessments as a result of the contemporary "Everyone's a winner" positive self-esteem environment that we live in. Honesty (often for the first time in their lives) can be rather confronting for these people.
 

Blackers13

Syd Malcolm (24)
The problem is it is self perpetuating.
The 20's are sourced from the Schoolboys,who were sourced from the 16's.
Not enough fresh cattle is introduced along the way to suggest it is working.
If you were not an early developer at 15, then most of your opportunities have just disappeared.
Yes there are exceptions to the rule.But the rule is fucked if you ask me.
That's part of it the rest is the opportunity for those not picked up by the system to at least be in contention.
 

Blackers13

Syd Malcolm (24)
That is the process though. You identify the talented young juniors from various rep teams and you put them into academies. Some might not work out but plenty will.

Your success rate is surely going to be higher if you pick people who excelled when they were young rather than players who didn't who you have a hunch might be better when they're a bit older.

I'm not really sure what you're proposing as a potential solution to the issue you've identified.
And that process has delivered where we are today. I'm saying the process has to widen and be more inclusive than it currently is.
 

Blackers13

Syd Malcolm (24)
Ryan09 may have some valid points about the process that are perhaps worth exploring..
Agree mostly. I'm not about dissing any of the current reps, I'm suggesting a more open and inclusive selection process that gives everyone an opportunity to compete at the highest level. The current system will see us finish 6th at best in the JWRC on top of our 8th last time and the Wallabies performances of recent years. Surely it's time to review our processes to ensure we are attracting and retaining the best.
 

Zander

Ron Walden (29)
Whilst Australia did not get the results they wanted, this was a totally different Australian team from the previous years. Why? Well their strength was clearly the pack, their forward play was generally very good, often outplaying the New Zealand side in the scrums, breakdown and maul. Half the tries scored against Fiji albeit against a weak pack were done from pick and drives. The coaching staff obviously did a lot of work in this area and it showed, it's something to build on.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
That UJ Seutini was awful all around. Didn't matter where he played

-----------------------
I hate autocorrect ...
 

Iluvmyfooty

Phil Hardcastle (33)
I have read twice now on this thread that the best that OZ can do is 6th. They are in the pool playing off for spots 5-8. So the best that they can do is 5th. They play Argentina first and the winner plays the winner of the Ireland France game for spots 5 and 6. The 2 losers play off for 7 and 8
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
UJ Seutini did not have a good tournament last year did he?

With Nuci in charge last year, it was always a question of how much you put the performance down to the coach, game plan and preparation, and how much was due to the calibre of the players.

How is UJ performing in colts/premier rugby?
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
When the first National Academy was started up clubs were asked to nominate players for it. Is it still the case?

If it is, then the Academy coaches get a good look at players nominated by clubs - and two of the Under 20 coaches, Thompson (HC) and Hedger (AC) are both Academy coaches - one in NSW and the other in Qld.

They would also be selectors.

Is there anybody on the forum who is a club official and can say that clubs don't get to nominate players for the National Academy?

Of course, the question arises: if clubs do nominate players, how can one be certain that the nominated players are given due process?
.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
I think your last sentence may be the crux of @Ryan09s beef with the process.

Even if Player X has developed since not being identified as a future champion as a 15 year old, there are some who believe that Player X will never get a genuine look in regardless of how much support that they receive from their club.

One reality is that while Player X may not get a fair go, at least 100 of their peers do get a fair, and transparent, go to make the final 28. For all the Player X's that miss out, so do 72 of their "Chosen Few" pampered GPS, NGS and Academy mates.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
That's cold comfort.
I never got a go because there were 72 fucking golden boys clogging up the process?
Reckon I would be happy with that reality?
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
I like to watch you clearly believe that the process is flawed, right back to the when kids first enter the "pathway".

Do you have specifics to answer the questions posed by Uncle Lee:

- Which players should have gone to France instead of the lads who are there?
Names of players who are:
- probably better than such and such in France (who are they better than and why?).
- were healthy when the squad was picked
- and were they part of the original 50 players invited to the first camp, or not.
- which eligible 1st and 2nd graders missed out - are they better than a fellow in France? What level rugby does the fellow in France play, that he is better than?

These are the specifics I need.

Or is the main gripe, not that players X, Y and Z are obviously better than A, B and C in France but that X, Y and Z were disadvantaged because they were not in the National Academy and A, B and C were, and progressed more quickly as a consequence - or if they about the same in ability as A, B and C then A, B and C would have got the benefit of the doubt?

Should any credence be given to assertions that the U20 selectors chose Academy player A over non-Academy player Z just because he had to justify the role of the Academy as a pathway?
 

churchills cigar

Peter Burge (5)
I think your last sentence may be the crux of @Ryan09s beef with the process.

Even if Player X has developed since not being identified as a future champion as a 15 year old, there are some who believe that Player X will never get a genuine look in regardless of how much support that they receive from their club.

One reality is that while Player X may not get a fair go, at least 100 of their peers do get a fair, and transparent, go to make the final 28. For all the Player X's that miss out, so do 72 of their "Chosen Few" pampered GPS, NGS and Academy mates.
I totally agree and UJS is a great example.
Since being cherry picked and parachuted ( yes by Nucci) into a full scholarship at TSS, he has been a total myth.
Last year at the u20's he was woeful, this year I don't believe he is any better and yet he has a Reds contract without actually showing any quality at all, IMO anyway.
Once these kids get targeted as 15 year olds its all over red rover, quality players coming thru don't get a look in.
 
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