2012 S15R12 Stormers vs Waratahs @ Newlands

[MrMouse]

Pushing and shoving after the whistle. Like a fox terrier that thinks he has a chance against a rotweiller.

I'm probably making something out of nothing but he irritates me almost as much as Waterboy Carter.

Out of interest, Blue (not trying to stir anything up) but how do you feel about players like Burger, Botha et al who not only do the niggly stuff but also some things which the wider rugby community views very negatively? Do you like them, either playing for their province or the Boks?

 

[waratahjesus]

WJ, you have to get past your anti-Red thing. The Reds kicked more & scored less tries. But there was no way they were boring.

I said nothing anti reds at all. The reds played a game very similar against the stormers last year, the only difference was the perception of the media. The reds won a game in a place very hard to win, but they did so in a very drab manor that the Tahs played close to last night, for the reds it was awesome coaching and application, for the tahs it's boring and terrible.

 

[waratahjesus]

Gnostic - if I can ask a question, do you believe you can judge anything the Tahs do from a point of independence?

Also, how did you judge the kicks into a percentage and did you do the same for the stormers kicks based on the same formula?

 

[Gnostic]

WJ. I am a Tahs supporter, I'm not independent in this.

I did not watch the match to count the Stormers kicks and their effects, but they had quite a few aimless/poor execution kicks as well in the first half, but from my impression (baring in mind what I have said about the inherent errors exposed by the objective count as I posted above) they had some very accurate kicks for touch, and the chasers were much more effective with Aplon being far superior in the air to Barnes, Foley or Pakalani and Habana being quickly on hand to tackle the receiver as they receveived the ball. It was a contrast to the Tahs who rarely pressured the receiver apart from the Barnes kick which AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) gathered and chipped ahead to tackle the defender over the try line.

Easy to judge the kicks as a percentage when you count how many there were to give you the denominator then simply by kick execution and effect count them as well executed (from the aspect of the positioning of the kick itself to the aim it sought to achieve and the actual chase the support players employed).

In the Rebels game on now Gerrrard gets turnover ball and kicks for the corner the ball doesn't make touch but the defence drives Nalaga into touch. Kick would be classified as not only well executed as it found space and pulled up only 2 metres from the line but the chase was very good. Contrast with so many Tahs kicks that were fielded in the middle space of the field on the full by a defender under no pressure. Hence percentage can be calculated.

 

[waratahjesus]

I get what your saying, it would be interesting to see the stormers kicks as judged by you the same way as the Tahs to show in a single game if the Tahs are actually executing compared to there direct opponents. (although Tahs should be able to execute there game plan as there own, but at least it would a direct comparison)

 

[Blue]

Out of interest, Blue (not trying to stir anything up) but how do you feel about players like Burger, Botha et al who not only do the niggly stuff but also some things which the wider rugby community views very negatively? Do you like them, either playing for their province or the Boks?

I don't like it. Maybe you haven't been here as long as me but you will see me being vocal about foul play. Whoever is involved.

Play and get on with it.

My worst is showboating after a try. Like bouncing the ball off an opposition players head. Or like Hoeata giving the Bulls an up yours.

I can go an and on but I don't like players reacting after being tackled. Tom Carter being a prime example.

I repeatedly called for Botha to be sacked from the Boks and he should have been.

 

[TOCC]

I said nothing anti reds at all. The reds played a game very similar against the stormers last year, the only difference was the perception of the media. The reds won a game in a place very hard to win, but they did so in a very drab manor that the Tahs played close to last night, for the reds it was awesome coaching and application, for the tahs it's boring and terrible.

Statistics are one thing, but there is a incredible difference between effective and ineffective kicking.. At the moment the Tahs are still using a lot of ineffective kicks, which is boring for fans, pointlessly kicking away possession isn't entertaining rugby. Putting a kick behind defence and forcing them to run it out, or sneaking a cheeky kick which grubber across the touchline 5m from the try line and subsequently applying pressure at the next line-out is entertaining rugby.

The Reds game against the stormers was probably one of the best displays of using tactical kicking in an effective manor by any Australian team in the past 18 months.

 

[waratahjesus]

Statistics are one thing, but there is a incredible difference between effective and ineffective kicking.. At the moment the Tahs are still using a lot of ineffective kicks, which is boring for fans, pointlessly kicking away possession isn't entertaining rugby.

The Reds game against the stormers was probably one of the best displays of using tactical kicking in an effective manor by any Australian team in the past 18 months.

Yet the game also featured a terribly out of place mike Harris at fullback, aeveral communication errors and alot of poor kicks as well.

As I said it's nit about reducing the red effort or building up the Tahs last night, it's just a point about perception outweighing reality in some places.

 

[TOCC]

Yet the game also featured a terribly out of place mike Harris at fullback, aeveral communication errors and alot of poor kicks as well.

As I said it's nit about reducing the red effort or building up the Tahs last night, it's just a point about perception outweighing reality in some places.

I think you are confusing your games... Mike Harris didn't play fullback against the Stormers... Luke Morahan did

Mike Harris played fullback the week prior and was obviously caught out with several communication errors.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

One of the problems I see is that the Tahs don't seem tomhave any young guns coming through or getting their chances in Super rugby. I'm talking about the 20-22 year olds that add some energy and excitement with their involvement. Qld have a few (Shipperly, Sautia, Gill, Sam lane, Ben Lucas), ACT have a few (Hoper, Leiliafano, Tomane, Mogg), Rebels have a few (Neville, Pyle, Lachlan Mitchell) and the Force have a couple (Pocock, Tupou). NSW only have Horne and Kingston, NSW o into each year with the same personnel and get the same effort and results on the field

 

[TSR]

I said nothing anti reds at all. The reds played a game very similar against the stormers last year, the only difference was the perception of the media. The reds won a game in a place very hard to win, but they did so in a very drab manor that the Tahs played close to last night, for the reds it was awesome coaching and application, for the tahs it's boring and terrible.

WJ, I am guilty of not reading your post properly - so my apologies for that.

In the Reds case last year it was a clear and deliberate change of strategy for a specific game. Made more effective & impressive because it was a significant change in playing style. In the Tahs case, I have not watched the game - I was going to watch the reply today, but after reading the comments here I took the kids to the park instead. So I'll leave it to the posters who did to provide the analysis.

 

[MrMouse]

I don't like it. Maybe you haven't been here as long as me but you will see me being vocal about foul play. Whoever is involved.

Play and get on with it.

My worst is showboating after a try. Like bouncing the ball off an opposition players head. Or like Hoeata giving the Bulls an up yours.

I can go an and on but I don't like players reacting after being tackled. Tom Carter being a prime example.

I repeatedly called for Botha to be sacked from the Boks and he should have been.

Fair enough - in that case, it's a principled stand and I have no issue with it

 

[ACT Crusader]

I don't like it. Maybe you haven't been here as long as me but you will see me being vocal about foul play. Whoever is involved.

Play and get on with it.

My worst is showboating after a try. Like bouncing the ball off an opposition players head. Or like Hoeata giving the Bulls an up yours.

I can go an and on but I don't like players reacting after being tackled. Tom Carter being a prime example.

I repeatedly called for Botha to be sacked from the Boks and he should have been.

Is that what he did Blue. I thought it was more out of frustration or to the the TMO because he didn't get the try only minutes earlier.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Strong game from B Foley, excellent under the high ball, good kick returns and injects himself into the backline well.

Looked very good when coming into 1st receiver as well. Far more effective than BB was at 1st.

 

[waratahjesus]

I think you are confusing your games... Mike Harris didn't play fullback against the Stormers... Luke Morahan did

Mike Harris played fullback the week prior and was obviously caught out with several communication errors.

Yeah, got the wrong player.

Anyway, it sounds like I'm debating the reds win now which I'm not, it was a good win with similar tactics that the Tahs didn't pull off as well. My point is to do with people saying they were the wrong tactics.

 

[waratahjesus]

WJ, I am guilty of not reading your post properly - so my apologies for that.

In the Reds case last year it was a clear and deliberate change of strategy for a specific game. Made more effective & impressive because it was a significant change in playing style. In the Tahs case, I have not watched the game - I was going to watch the reply today, but after reading the comments here I took the kids to the park instead. So I'll leave it to the posters who did to provide the analysis.

Yeah, for a non supporter it is pretty hard to sit through. You made the right choice.

 

[whatty]

They may disappoint me each week as to there attacking ability somehow lost in translation but hell, they keep on winning!
The loose forward make-up is going to be a big problem area for the next two games!

 

[rugbysmartarse]

The one thing that struck me, and comparing the teams to 2010, the waratahs are not even close to the same team, and they got a lot closer to the stormers than their predecessors. Still, they at top of the table and if I were a stormers supporter I'd not be complaining too hard

 

[Bardon]

I know it's not the case but at this stage of the season it feel like the Tahs backs selection is done by the process of Rock, Paper, Scissors until all positions 9-15 are filled. Then in the corner of the changing room in a board with the heading Game Pan with one word underneath "meh".

All these close defeats are doing is allowing coaches, management etc. at the Tahs to keep deluding themselves that they are close to the winning formula. At this stage it would almost be better for them to lose by 40+ a few times to serve as a wake up call that there is something seriously wrong.

 

[Gnostic]

Exactly Bardon. I find myself arguing with myself for the need that the Tahs fail utterly to pick up further points thus requiring a total rebuild from the Board down. A total rebuild like we have seen at the Brumbies this year. It really says something that the Rebels, with their limitted playing roster (considering the depth not justa few star players) have to date been more successful and played better Rugby (defence somewhat lacking but improving) than the Tahs. It is a hard thing to accept as a Tahs fan but without such a shocking season there will be the excuses and the false optimists who just say BUT BUT BUT and say they met KPIs or some such.