2012 S15: Scrum Changes

[Lee Grant]

Storm in a teacup? I hope not:

This is from John Cardinelli of Keo:

****
Kaplan to aid Stormers scrum

31 Jan 2012
Accomplished referee Jonathan Kaplan will work with the Stormers forwards on Tuesday in order to help them adapt to the scrumming laws changes.

The Stormers struggled at this set-piece in last Friday’s warm-up match against the Lions, with referee Jaco Peyper nailing the Cape pack at the point of engagement. Coach Allister Coetzee later explained that the scrum laws have changed slightly since last year, but that Sanzar had failed to notify the teams. In fact, Peyper only told Coetzee about these changes prior to kickoff, and so the Stormers were left to adapt as the game progressed.

Sanzar referees met at the end of last year to discuss the scrum and it was decided that the ‘crouch, touch, pause, engage’ call required a change in cadence. Special precautions will now also be taken to ensure there are no ‘slingshot’ manoeuvres where the No 8 slams into the second row; referees will be looking to front rows to initiate the shove.

‘I feel we played well last week, but there are areas that require improvement like our scrumming,’ said Coetzee. ‘We’ve had a look and we will be having a live scrumming session [on Tuesday] and Jonathan Kaplan will be in to help us.

‘We really need to work as a pack to get this right. It’s all about the timing. I suppose the laws have been changed to make the scrum more stable and the potential for collapsed scrums is decreased when the force is no longer coming from behind in a slingshot motion. The props will initiate the hit...."

**************

It seems to raise more questions than it answers doesn't it? The referee didn't tell the coaches until just before the game? How Mickey Mouse is that SANZAR?

What are the details on the engage? As I wrote before: there doesn't seem to be any change to what happens now in the points listed earlier.

The non-engage items seem clear cut. No slingshot from the 8 - big deal. Pushing straight and no walking around? Yep, these are not specifically laws, but have always been refereed as though they were. No hand down on the ground, yeah - a binding law already.

So what did Peyper ping the players for, specifically, apart from the stuff in my last paragraph?

Coetzee's statement - "SANZAR is looking to have a situation where the front row engages first rather than the whole pack......" is looking more and more enigmatic. How can the props initiate a hit first if they have 5 others attached to them? If it is just an old style soft engage of the front rows and the others joining them, and waiting for the scrum feed, then it is not a hit, ipso facto.

One can't imagine that the SANZAR referees will do any revolutionary like that without the imprimatur of the IRB, and we have heard bugger all from them.

It may indeed be a storm in a teacup, though the Stormers didn't think so.

 

[suckerforred]

Storm in a teacup? I hope not:

The Stormers struggled at this set-piece in last Friday’s warm-up match against the Lions, with referee Jaco Peyper nailing the Cape pack at the point of engagement. Coach Allister Coetzee later explained that the scrum laws have changed slightly since last year, but that Sanzar had failed to notify the teams. In fact, Peyper only told Coetzee about these changes prior to kickoff, and so the Stormers were left to adapt as the game progressed.

WTF??????? So is there any 'offical'word from SANZAR?

 

[Sully]

I was wondering what had happened in the much hyped post RWC rules meeting. Seems no one really knows. Do we have to wait for the season start to find out?


Sent using Tapatalk on a very old phone

 

[PaarlBok]

PaarlBok - did the front rows actually engage seperately in the match against the Lions?

Havent watch the game, will be shown next week.

Our refs had a camp and the outcome
http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2841466.htm

Referees work to get it right
Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:07


South Africa's top referees have just completed a four-day training camp prior to the start of the 2012 rugby season.
This year's rugby season will be challenging, and so the time was perfect for the referee workshop held near Rustenburg for the SA Referees on the SA Panel including the women referees.
The four-day refresher will ensure greater consistency and accuracy in on-field decision-making.
"As referees we're committed to ensuring uniform application of the Laws across all of the rugby competitions in which we officiate," said SA Rugby's General Manager of Referees, André Watson.
"We met in Sydney with our SANZAR partners in middle January and agreed on protocols for the coming season. While there are no Law changes to be implemented, it was a platform to review the highs and lows of last year and agree on common expectations for the coming year."
Material covered at the SA Referees Camp at Konka included the outcomes of the SANZAR workshop together with the 2012 version of the BokSmart Rugby Safety Programme.
Respected coaches Rudolf Straeuli and Rassie Erasmus took referees through examples of their pre-match preparations and also had the match officials running the same training drills used by many of the teams.
Former Springbok scrum coach Balie Swart was also on hand to help demystify the intricacies of scrumming. He took the referees through a presentation on the technical side of things with live clips and then ended with a practical demonstration where the referee had to scrum.
"Feedback from those attending - and it included referees with World Cup experience - was that the pre-season camp was one of the best of its kind they had yet experienced," said Watson.
"In addition to the technical Law reviews and input from experienced coaches, they also underwent fitness testing, completed the updated BokSmart programme, participated in a motivational/self-analysis presentation and wrote the National Laws Exam.
"I'm confident that our Super and National Panel referees are now well prepared for the season ahead and I'm personally looking forward to the first blast of the whistle on opening day."
The so-called 'Big Five' - tackle, scrum, offside, ruck, and maul - remain the priority areas as in previous years but with additional emphasis on the following points:
Scrum:
• Alignment - front rows must be in a position to interlock on engagement; there must be no touching of heads.
• Early engagement - both teams must start the engagement process simultaneously on the referee's call.
• Engagement angles - front rows must push straight and parallel to the touchlines; loosehead props must not 'walk' the scrum around the tighthead.
• Binding - front rankers must bind on their opponent in the appropriate manner; no hands on the ground for support.
• Post-engagement infringements - illegal wheeling on purpose, so-called 'whip wheeling' and not pushing straight and parallel to the touchline are all actions to be penalised.
Tackle:
• The tackler must release and clear away after the tackler.
• The tackler assist must release and show clear and obvious release before going for the ball.
• Arriving players must not go past the ball into an offside position and try to obstruct the opposition going for the ball.
• Players must respect the offside lines at the ruck and maul (the hindmost foot of their player in the ruck or maul).
• Arriving players not attempting to clean-out the opposition must demonstrate positive actions to stay on their feet.
• A player who uses correct technique but ends up off his feet after removing a threat is not penalised; this is a positive action and the "hammer or snake" technique is included here.
Assistant Referees at Super Rugby will also be called on to take a more involved approach to the game without becoming an interference or hindrance to the referee. This will involve greater monitoring of offside lines at the ruck and maul and infringements close to the touchline where the referee may be unsighted.
There was also an exam at the course, based mainly on clips from, actual matches.

 

[PaarlBok]

Saffers on the ref panel:
Merit Panel:

Marius Jonker (SA), Craig Joubert (SA), Jonathan Kaplan (SA), Mark Lawrence (SA), Jaco Peyper (SA)

 

[PaarlBok]

and Oom Lee, Keo is a storm in a tea cup.

 

[Lee Grant]

Seems this may have been just a storm in a teacup after all. Sure, the Stormers were penalised 18 times in the trial and got 3 yellow cards at the end of the game (and the Lions couldn't score a try against 12) - but only 4 penalties were for scrum matters.

Looks like the Stormers got into trouble more because of the tackle items mentioned above.

A report of the game and the infringements here:

http://sport.iafrica.com/article/775372.html

 

[darkhorse]

watch the northern hemisphere outcry if this is how it is to be played

I'm not so sure. A a lot of ex British International front rowers have come out recently saying they were against the hit and that it was ruining the scrum. The hit is a relatively new concept after, so I think the armchair brigade that was up in arms about the traditions would be more receptive to going back to the old ways with this issue.

 

[PaarlBok]

Seems this may have been just a storm in a teacup after all. Sure, the Stormers were penalised 18 times in the trial and got 3 yellow cards at the end of the game (and the Lions couldn't score a try against 12) - but only 4 penalties were for scrum matters.

Looks like the Stormers got into trouble more because of the tackle items mentioned above.

A report of the game and the infringements here:

http://sport.iafrica.com/article/775372.html

Oom Lee I am going to bring this one back to life as soon as the ref scrum penalies moaning starts. Bookmarked

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I'm not so sure. A a lot of ex British International front rowers have come out recently saying they were against the hit and that it was ruining the scrum. The hit is a relatively new concept after, so I think the armchair brigade that was up in arms about the traditions would be more receptive to going back to the old ways with this issue.

I can see the attraction to going back to the old days - but do ex-players command respect with the powers that be?

 

[PaarlBok]

Kaplans advice
Sport24

Kaplan discussed the rules in a constructive manner with the Stormers this week. "It's my job to provide them with information and the coaches' job to decide on the application."

Craig Joubert will blow the Stormers' pre-season match against the Cheetahs this weekend, which will show how much they have learnt from their session with Kaplan.

The teams can also expect to be punished when engaging too early at scrum time.

"There will be quicker action taken against a team that engages early. A penalty will immediately follow a free kick against the team transgressing. In the past we were much more lenient.

"Sometimes a free kick against the team transgressing is not enough punishment.

"If you have a situation where the two packs of forwards are equally strong, one team could gain an advantage if it wins the engagement.

"It's our responsibility to ensure that there's a fair clash."

 

[Inside Shoulder]

There must be some doubt about the implication that arises from the following:

"If you have a situation where the two packs of forwards are equally strong, one team could gain an advantage if it wins the engagement.

"It's our responsibility to ensure that there's a fair clash."

I believed under the modern laws and their policing that winning the engagement was considered a legitimate means of destabilising one's opponents.

If so this seems to be a massive change in the dynamics.

 

[PaarlBok]

Again, SA Rugby's qoute

South Africa’s top referees scrummed against each other and were given master classes from top coaches as part of a recently completed four-day training camp prior to the start of the 2012 rugby season.
Former Springbok prop Balie Swart had SA’s top whistlers packing down to demystify the intricacies of scrumming while Rassie Erasmus and Rudolf Straeuli took referees through examples of their pre-match analysis. They also put the match officials through the same training drills used by many of the teams.
“Feedback from those attending – and it included referees with Rugby World Cup experience – was that the pre-season camp was one of the best of its kind they had yet experienced,” said South African Rugby Union General Manager of Referees, André Watson.
“In addition to the technical Law reviews and input from experienced coaches, they also underwent fitness testing, completed the updated BokSmart programme, participated in a motivational/self-analysis presentation and wrote the National Laws Exam.
“I’m confident that our Super and National Panel referees are now well prepared for the season and I’m personally looking forward to the first blast of the whistle on opening day.”
Material covered at the SA Referees’ Camp at Konka included the outcomes of a recent Sanzar workshop

Watson doing everthing possible to keep our refs in top notch. Balie probably enjoyed the refs scumming.

 

[Bardon]

It may be a storm in a tea cup in terms of the effect of the law changes. But the break down in communications where SANZAR hasn't informed the clubs that the law was to change is unacceptable. There must have been some official report released after the referees meeting. I don't see why all clubs and national unions affected by the law change wouldn't receive a copy of the report automatically or failing that an official communication from SANZAR.

 

[PaarlBok]

Os du Randt's view
Sport24

Os on Super Rugby scrums

2012-02-07 07:47
Email | Print

Os du Randt (File)

Cape Town - Cheetahs forwards coach Os du Randt believes scrummaging in this year's Super Rugby competition will be more competitive.

The former Bok prop feels the fact that referees will be a lot stricter at scrum time will lead to scrums being performed in a more legitimate manner.

The South African Rugby Union (SARU) recently indicated where the emphasis in scrums will lie. Front rankers have to engage immediately, their heads are not allowed to touch beforehand and they have to engage on the referee's call.

Scrumming straight will also be essential, while props will need to bind correctly without placing their hands on the surface.

According to Du Randt this will stop teams from using the so-called "slingshot-method". In this method the eightman pulls his props backwards before pushing forward before engagement, which gives more momentum.

The laws state that all eight players need to be static before engagement and no forward or sideways movement is allowed.

"Referee's will just put more emphasis on teams attempting the slingshot. They will be more critical. Looseheads will now "hit" a lot more, but one cannot really do anything about that. But everything will be more legitimate," Du Randt told the Volksblad newspaper

 

[HKTiger]

Scary that very experienced refs, arguably the best in the world, find a 4 day camp where they scrummage 'the best they have ever had". My bemusement of refs and scrums will no doubt continue.

I know my first refs assessor had played as a hooker and "got it". I know subsequent assessor had limited understanding of the pack and pre-game instructions to the pack were very limited.

I would have thought that camps like this and trying to get the refs on to one page should be an IRB initiative and mandatory. The "non-communication" aside, this reeks of a highly unprofessional approach to a) managing referees and b) getting a consistent approach to adjudicating the laws.

 

[PaarlBok]

Seems this may have been just a storm in a teacup after all.

Still feel the same way Oom Lee? The one game between two countries teams ended in a scrum penalty fest in Newlands. More to come in the next few weeks.

 

[PaarlBok]

Maties and Cambridge Boarding schools will test out new rules to help sort out scrums and a few other grey areas to try and speed up the game

(This is pretty fresh from Stellenbosch and I cant find any english version or dont want to translate it via Google and sound like an arse hole)
Die Burger
http://www.dieburger.com/Sport/Rugby/Maties-toets-reels-vir-IRR-20120301

Maties toets reëls vir IRR

2012-03-01 22:14




Marco Botha


STELLENBOSCH. – Die universiteite van Stellenbosch en Cambridge stel eersdaags sewe rugbyreëls in hul koshuisligas op die proef, wat onder meer die huidige gemors in skrums kan help opklaar.
Hendrik Greyvenstein, hoof van die Maties Skeidsregters-akademie, het gister aan Sport24 bevestig dat Stellenbosch en Cambridge, nes in 2006, as die Internasionale Rugbyraad (IRR) se rugby-laboratoriums gaan dien.
Die vernaamste van die reëlwysigings, wat van 11 April tot 18 Mei in drie ligas getoets gaan word, is die vereenvoudiging van die inslaantekens by skrums.
“Tans sê ’n skeidsregter ‘crouch, touch, pause, engage’. Dit word na ‘crouch, touch, set’ verander,” het Greyvenstein gesê.
“Daar is twee redes. Die woord engage het twee lettergrepe. Sommige spanne het op die eerste ingeslaan en ander ná die tweede. Deur ‘engage’ met ‘set’ te vervang, maak ons ’n subtiele maar hopelik doeltreffende verstelling.
“Tweedens het sommige skeidsregters langer as ander ge-pause en daardie verskil in toepassing kan die persentasie suksesvolle skrums per wedstryd verlaag.”
.Die onkantlyn vir ’n verdedigende skrumskakel sal ook nou die bek van ’n skrum eerder as die bal wees. Selfs al sou die skrum swaai, sal sy onkantlyn parallel met die doellyne bly en nie teen ’n hoek saam met die skrum swaai nie. Só word beter besit aan agterspelers nagestreef.
.Nóg ’n wysiging kan spanne verhinder om tyd te mors deur ’n bal oneindig lank in ’n losskrum te los. Ingevolge hierdie proefreël sal die bal binne vyf sekondes gespeel moet word nadat dit beskikbaar geraak het. Greyvenstein-hulle sal toets of ’n skrum of vryskop aan die verdedigende span die beste straf vir versuim is. Hierdie reël kan skrumskakels, wat hul lyf verkeersman hou, ook aanjaag.
.Frans Steyn sal hoop die volgende wysiging word nie wet nie. Indien ’n speler die bal met ’n onsuksesvolle skepskop-poging via sy teenstander se doelgebied uitskop, mag die teenstander kies tussen ’n inskop vanaf die kwartlyn óf ’n skrum van waar die bal geskop is. Tans word ’n inskop outomaties afgedwing.
Die ander wysigings het ten doel om die bal vinniger en langer in aktiewe spel te kry en te hou.
.Indien ’n span byvoorbeeld vyf meter van ’n teenstander se doellyn vanaf ’n lynstaan ’n straf- of vryskop kry, kan hy op nóg ’n lynstaan aandring sonder om weer uit te skop. Dit is bo en behalwe die bestaande skrum-opsie.
.’n Speler kan voorts ’n vinnige ingooi neem regoor die plek waar ’n teenstander die bal onwettig direk uitgeskop het. In die huidige reëls kan sulke ingooie net geneem word waar die bal die kantlyn kruis en terug.
.Indien die bal aangeslaan word en oor die kantlyn gaan, mag die nie-oortredende span kies tussen ’n vinnige ingooi, lynstaan of die gebruiklike toekenning van ’n skrum.


- Die Burger

Summarised:
1.crouch, touch, pause, engage to be replaced with ‘crouch, touch, set’ .
Set is quicker then engage and pause isnt very productive.

2.Off side rule for the scrummies go back to the mouth of the scrum.

3.No time allowed at the back of mauls to keep the ball behind the last mans feet. 5 seconds allowed. Still no sure if this will be a penalty or free kick.

4. Failed drop kicks been kick out the opponents have a choise for a scrum from the drop kick place or a kick in.

5. No need to kick the ball out from 5 meters from tryline after a penalty awarded. Choise between scrum or line out.

6. When ball been kicked ou on the full the opponent can take a quick throw from where the kicker took the kick.

7. If the ball has been knocked on and went out, the opponents can have a quick throw in.

(If the Saffers want to translate they are welcome)

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

1.crouch, touch, pause, engage to be replaced with ‘crouch, touch, set’ .
Set is quicker then engage and pause isnt very productive.

Yea, the whole idea of saying "pause" is getting silly really. May as well just "pause" between touch and set.

2.Off side rule for the scrummies go back to the mouth of the scrum.

I like this one, halfbacks harassing each other is just creating a huge mess at the back of the scrum. And that nonsense they do in France where they kick it out of the halfbacks hands is just ridiculous.

3.No time allowed at the back of mauls to keep the ball behind the last mans feet. 5 seconds allowed. Still no sure if this will be a penalty or free kick.

I'm not 100% sure either. I think the first offence will result in a scrum, and any follow up offences will be given as "free kicks", probably to avoid time waste.

Also, this one is for "rucks" not "mauls".

4. Failed drop kicks been kick out the opponents have a choise for a scrum from the drop kick place or a kick in.

This one probably wont be as popular as others. Worth a try though.

5. No need to kick the ball out from 5 meters from tryline after a penalty awarded. Choise between scrum or line out.

Yea, you can have a line out in-line with the awarded penalty instead of having to kick it out.

6. When ball been kicked ou on the full the opponent can take a quick throw from where the kicker took the kick.

Posted this video in another thread: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRp1sYiQQVU Even if he took it with the right ball it would still be illegal (but the commentators don't mention it). So that is what this law changes.


Thanks for posting Paarl.

 

[PaarlBok]

Thanks for posting Paarl.

My pleasure Boet. Maties started way back experimenting in their koshuisliga with the ELVs and I updated Oom Lee with all the info during that time. I'll update this as it go along.