2012 S15 All things Referee thread

[Cave Dweller]

Probably the reason why I switch most times to the Kiwi/Aus commentators when watching TV rugby. Get the view from the other side. When they critisize the ref I laugh at them.

They all do it lol All the commentators do it. They are the referees worst enemy

 

[Sully]

This from Lyndon Bray on Lawrence's performance last weekend.

"Overall Bryce did a good job,” Bray told foxsports.com.au.

The full article here


He can't really be expecting us to swallow that can he?

 

[yourmatesam]

Probably the reason why I switch most times to the Kiwi/Aus commentators when watching TV rugby. Get the view from the other side. When they critisize the ref I laugh at them.

Of all the commentators going around, Rod Kafer and Justin Marshall have the better law (and game) knowledge. I haven't watched too many if the SA games so can't really comment on them.

Phil Kearns and Co bag out Greg Martin for being a qualified referee, but I reckon as commentators, they should have a better than average law knowledge. I understand that the commentators can't be solely law focussed, but a good understanding of the laws goes a long way as a commentator.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Of all the commentators going around, Rod Kafer and Justin Marshall have the better law (and game) knowledge. I haven't watched too many if the SA games so can't really comment on them.

Phil Kearns and Co bag out Greg Martin for being a qualified referee, but I reckon as commentators, they should have a better than average law knowledge. I understand that the commentators can't be solely law focussed, but a good understanding of the laws goes a long way as a commentator.

Justin Marshall is a lot of times wrong. Players do not know much the laws themselves at times. But a lot of breakdown penalties in a neutral zone on the pitch is normally due to bad timing. You can see there is a split second between not relasing the tackler and the carrier not releasing the ball decisions.

I have read this nice little line somewhere I think it is in the law book

Rugby union is probably the only game in the world where there can be a contest for possession at every facet and phase of the game

But the main thing is that a referee must never guess. They have a golden rule that states "To referee only what you see."

 

[boyo]

Phil Kearns and Co bag out Greg Martin for being a qualified referee, but I reckon as commentators, they should have a better than average law knowledge. I understand that the commentators can't be solely law focussed, but a good understanding of the laws goes a long way as a commentator.

I've said it before: Rugby commentators should have to learn/know "The Laws of the Game" before they are allowed to commentate on a game, or else viewers/listeners can be misinformed.

 

[Mank]

Franks have been doing a lot off stuff that is against the laws the last few weeks and seems to get away with it. That is dangerous play what he did there.

Those two incidents were borderline. In the first, Franks arguably has his hands touching the ball a split second before the ruck is formed. However, technically he pulled the ball back after it had formed. Law says a penalty.

Second incident, yes he went flying off his feet, however the ball was leaving the ruck and so it made no material difference.

I can't believe I am sticking up for Franks though, who I believe is a serial and trained cheat. Him, along with a bunch of other players, mostly Kiwi, have numerous methods to secure advantage at the ruck, both attacking and defending. We all saw how Franks et al cleared space on the defenders side of the ruck in that video that went around a couple of years ago. However, my pet hate at the moment is what can only be described as professional blockers. I don't mean the traditional blocking at the edge of rucks.

I'm referring to players preventing opposition from joining the ruck through physical contact, basically obstruction, away from the actual tackle area. Noticed it a lot more recently which can't be coincidence, I believe it is coached. It's allowing their fetchers to go to work more effectively.

I'll try find a clip of it somewhere.

 

[Dam0]

The commentators say its good rugby. Everyone thinks that is correct what Franks did there. Next week another referee will blow it up and the commentators will question him so will the public. But in fact Franks is not allowed to do that. Thats a penalty.

That first Franks one is pretty close. If he has his hands on the ball before he comes into contact with the Stormers player on his feet then he can keep playing it. I think where he goes wrong is that he probably does let the ball go for a fraction of a second and then plays it again. Technically it should have been a penalty

HOWEVER as a referee we are told to referee infringements that are 'clear, obvious and material'. This infringement was not clear, and even after seeing it a few times on replay I am still not entirely sure it was a penalty.

That man Franks again. He dived in over the top off that ruck. Thats about 5 or 6 laws that he transgressed there but the commentators does not say anything about it so no one picked it up.

The second one was a maul when he went to enter it, not a ruck (2 Red, 1 white holding the ball carrier). He came in from the side, so there's a penalty there, but I don't know if I would penalise him for off his feet. He is clearly looking to bind onto the White player, who, just a fraction of a second before, collapses with the maul to the ground, meaning Franks misses his target and ends up on the ground on the wrong side.

Some referees would penalise for the coming in from the side, although I know a lot would see it and ignore it because it had precisely zero impact on the play (ie it was clear but not material)

 

[Dam0]

The SAReferees website, who have provided the clip say this regarding the first one

Owen Franks of the Crusaders assists in bringing Eben Etzebeth of the Stormers to the ground. It is a tackle, and Franks is not a tackler as the laws define a tackler as someone who goes to ground in the tackle. Franks is referred to as the tackle assist. He does not clearly release the ball-carrier. In other words, does not show daylight, to allow the ball-carrier to exercise his option of placing, passing or letting the ball go. Simultaneously, a ruck forms, and Franks, who is on his feet, rakes back the ball with his hand and is commended for good, basic rugby.

Not for the first time, but I disagree with their analysis here. The Stormers player clearly places it cleanly and Franks gets his hands on it after the Stormers player has let it go. I must admit I didn't even think that was an issue until reading it on their website.

 

[PaarlBok]

Week 13
Hurricanes vs Brumbies at Westpac Trust Stadium, Wellington
Referee: Mark Lawrence (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Glen Jackson (New Zealand), Richard Kelly (New Zealand)
Television match official: Vinny Munro (New Zealand)
Highlanders vs Bulls at Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
Referee: Ian Smith (Australia)
Assistant referees: Garratt Williamson (New Zealand), Kane McBride (New Zealand)
Television match official: Matthew Muir (New Zealand)
Crusaders vs Blues at AMI Stadium, Christchurch
Referee: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Glen Jackson (New Zealand), Jonathon White (New Zealand)
Television match official: Vinny Munro (New Zealand)
Reds vs Lions at Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane
Referee: Keith Brown (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Angus Gardner (Australia), Damien Mitchelmore (Australia)
Television match official: Steve Lesczcynski (Australia)
Cheetahs vs Sharks at Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
Referee: Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Rasta Rashivenga (South Africa), Tiaan Jonker (South Africa)
Television match official: Gerrie Coetzee (South Africa)
Stormers vs Waratahs at Newlands
Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Stuart Berry (South Africa), Christie du Preez (South Africa)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)
Force vs Rebels at NiB Stadium, Perth
Referee: Marius Jonker (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Francisco Pastrana (Argentina), Johan Hoffman (Australia)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)
Week 14
Chiefs vs Bulls in Hamilton
Referee: Mark Lawrence (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand), Sheldon Eden-Whaitiri (New Zealand)
Television match official: Nick Briant (New Zealand)
Hurricanes vs Rebels in Wellington
Referee: Jonathon White (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Mike Fraser (New Zealand), Richard Kelly (New Zealand)
Television match official: Vinny Munro (New Zealand)
Blues vs Highlanders in Auckland
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Nick Briant (New Zealand), Ben Skeen (New Zealand)
Television match official: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand)
Brumbies vs Reds in Canberra
Referee: Steve Walsh (Australia)
Assistant referees: Angus Gardner (Australia), Andrew Lees (Australia)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)
Force vs Lions in Perth
Referee: Garratt Williamson (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: James Leckie (Australia), Matt O'Brien (Australia)
Television match official: Matt Goddard (Australia)
Cheetahs vs Waratahs in Bloemfontein
Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Sindile Mayende (South Africa), Stefan Breytenbach (South Africa)
Television match official: Gerrie Coetzee (South Africa)
Sharks vs Stormers in Durban
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Lourens van der Merwe (South Africa), Reuben Rossouw (South Africa)
Television match official: Johann Meuwesen (South Africa)

 

[yourmatesam]

Week 13
Highlanders vs Bulls at Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
Referee: Ian Smith (Australia)
Crusaders vs Blues at AMI Stadium, Christchurch
Referee: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand)
Cheetahs vs Sharks at Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
Referee: Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa)
Force vs Rebels at NiB Stadium, Perth
Referee: Marius Jonker (South Africa)
Week 14
Brumbies vs Reds in Canberra
Referee: Steve Walsh (Australia)
Sharks vs Stormers in Durban
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)

Round 14 looks like a better round than Round 13 for referees. How does Bryce Lawrence get appointed?

 

[PaarlBok]

I am pretty upset Kaplan dont ref at newlands this weekend.

 

[Braveheart81]

I am pretty upset Kaplan dont ref at newlands this weekend.

As heard from no Waratahs fan ever.

 

[yourmatesam]

I wonder why Pollock doesn't get a gig in either round?

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Interesting law I hadn't seen before: http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2829662/

Dewaldt Duvenage of the Stormers hoists the ball and Cameron Jacobs of the Cheetahs catches it and is tackled by Bryan Habana. Rynhardt Elstadt is the first to arrive at the tackle and he cleans out an opponent about two metres from the tackle.

The referee penalises Elstadt, telling him that he had gone 'too far past the ball'.

So how far can a player clean out at a tackle?

Law 15.7 Forbidden Practices
(d) Players on their feet must not charge or obstruct an opponent who is not near the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick
The Law definitions define near as Within one metre.

The referee was right to penalise Elstadt who had in effect played an opponent who did not have the ball.

 

[PaarlBok]

Super Rugby match Officials Round 18​

Match No.114 : Hurricanes v Chiefs
Date Friday 13 July
Venue : Wellington
Kick Off local: 19:35
Referee: Jonathan Kaplan
Assistant Ref 1:Garratt Williamson
Assistant Ref 2: Keith Brown
TMO : Mike Fraser​

Match No.115 : Brumbies v Blues
Date Saturday 14 July
Venue : Canberra
Kick Off local: 15:30
Referee: Jonathon White
Assistant Ref 1:Ian Smith
Assistant Ref 2:Julian Pritchard
TMO : Matt Goddard​

Match No.116 : Crusaders v Force
Date .Saturday 14 July
Venue : Christchurch
Kick Off local: 19:35
Referee: Glen Jackson
Assistant Ref 1:Keith Brown
Assistant Ref 2: Kane McBride
TMO : Vinny Munro​

Match No.117. Reds v Waratahs
Date Saturday 14 July
Venue : Brisbane
Kick Off local: 19:40
Referee: Steve Walsh
Assistant Ref 1:Andrew Lees
Assistant Ref 2:Angus Gardner
TMO : Steve Lesczcynski​

Match No.118.Stormers v Rebels
Date : Saturday 14 July
Venue : Cape Town
Kick Off local: 15:00
Referee: Lourens van der Merwe
Assistant Ref 1:Mark Lawrence
Assistant Ref 2:Christie du Preez
TMO : Shaun Veldsman​

Match No.119 :Sharks v Cheetahs
Date .Saturday 14 July
Venue : Durban
Kick Off local: 17:05
Referee: Jaco Peyper
Assistant Ref 1:Marius Jonker
Assistant Ref 2:Reuben Rossouw
TMO : Gerrie Coetzee​

Match No.:120 : Bulls v Lions
Date Saturday 14 July
Venue : Pretoria
Kick Off local: 19:10
Referee: Craig Joubert
Assistant Ref 1: Lesego Legoete
Assistant Ref 2:Stefan Breytenbach
TMO : JC Fortuin​

 

[kiap]

Appointments for The Rugby Championship.....

DATE  MATCH   VENUE      REFEREE    AR 1       AR 2          TMO
18/8  AUS—NZL Sydney     A. Rolland N. Owens   L. V.d. Merwe M. Goddard
18/8  RSA—ARG Cape Town  S. Walsh   J. Garces  J. Lacey      J. Meuwsen
25/8  NZL—AUS Auckland   N. Owens   A. Rolland L. V.d. Merwe B. Skeen
25/8  ARG—RSA Mendoza    S. Walsh   J. Garces  J. Lacey      UAR appt

8/9   AUS—RSA Perth      N. Owens   W. Barnes  G. Jackson    M. Goddard
8/9   NZL—ARG Wellington R. Poite   G. Clancy  J. Leckie     V. Munro
15/9  AUS—ARG Gold Coast W. Barnes  N. Owens   G. Jackson    M. Goddard
15/9  NZL—RSA Dunedin    G. Clancy  R. Poite   J. Leckie     V. Munro

29/9  RSA—AUS Pretoria   A. Rolland R. Poite   G. Garner     S. Veldsman
29/9  ARG—NZL La Plata   J. Peyper  C. Joubert P. Gauzere    UAR appt
6/10  ARG—AUS Rosario    C. Joubert J. Peyper  P. Gauzere    UAR appt
6/10  RSA—NZL Soweto     A. Rolland R. Poite   G. Garner     S. Veldsman

Bledisloe III
20/10 AUS—NZL Brisbane   C. Joubert J. Peyper  L. V.d. Merwe M. Goddard

Including the re-tread.

 

[PaarlBok]

Appointments for The Rugby Championship...

DATE  MATCH  VENUE      REFEREE    AR 1      AR 2          TMO
25/8  ARG—RSA Mendoza    S. Walsh  J. Garces  J. Lacey      UAR appt
 29/9  ARG—NZL La Plata  J. Peyper  C. Joubert P. Gauzere    UAR appt
6/10  ARG—AUS Rosario    C. Joubert J. Peyper  P. Gauzere    UAR appt

Worried about the TMOs?

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Aren't all the TMO's from the home country? Can't see why it would make a difference.

 

[kiap]

Yeah, TMOs from home countries. Probably saves SANZAR $30k or so...

 

[elementfreak]

I wonder why Pollock doesn't get a gig in either round?

Hip surgery.