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2012 Rugby Championship Game 1 South Africa vs Argentina - 18 August

Who will win 2012 Rugby Championship Game 1 between SAF and Arg?

  • Los Pumas - Argentina

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • The Bokke - South Africa

    Votes: 24 88.9%

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
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Brisbok

Cyril Towers (30)
Breakdown by Super Rugby team:

Sharks - 8 starters, 1 bench
Stormers - 4 starters, 0 bench
Bulls - 3 starters, 3 bench
Cheetahs - 1 bench
Lions - 1 bench
Overseas - 1 bench

I wonder how many times in the last 10 - 15 years there has been a starting Springbok pack with not one Bulls representative in it?!? Surely not too many.
 

Brisbok

Cyril Towers (30)
Is Kruger injured?
No, didn't get picked in 22. In reading the comments in the media, Meyer's reasoning was that he has selected Bekker as his No.5 lock (lineout organiser/athletic lock) as he wants to give him an opportunity after not being available for the England series through injury. Etzebeth is coming into the game under a slight injury cloud though, so Meyer has gone with Flip van der Merwe on the bench as cover in case he is not able to see out the game (like for like replacement for Etzebeth).

A bit tough on Kruger who played so well in the England series, but you can see Meyer's logic.

I'm assuming you were referring to Juandre rather than the prop Werner who is absolutely hopeless and should never wear Bok colours again!
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
Fair enough about the scrum Brisbok. I would still say they are the weakest scrum in the TRC, only just. Regardless I would take The Beast and BdP over Benn Robinson and TPN any day of the week, they just add so much more around the park. Etzebeth is going to go far in this game, but it is only his first year at this level and maybe his body is starting to get a bit worn out. Kruger adds a bit more starch, but yeah I can see Meyer's logic as you allude too and maybe a Bekker-Kruger combo will be the one that trotts out against the ABs and us. either way it wont be too much difference which ever pairing is picked.
 

FrankLind

Colin Windon (37)
South Africa:

15. Zane Kirchner, 14. Bryan Habana, 13. Jean de Villiers (captain), 12. Frans Steyn, 11. Lwazi Mvovo, 10. Morné Steyn, 9. Francois Hougaard, 8. Keegan Daniel, 7. Willem Alberts, 6. Marcell Coetzee, 5. Andries Bekker, 4. Eben Etzebeth, 3. Jannie du Plessis, 2. Bismarck du Plessis, 1. Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16. Adriaan Strauss, 17. Pat Cilliers, 18. Flip van der Merwe, 19. Jacques Potgieter, 20. Ruan Pienaar, 21. Pat Lambie, 22. JJ Engelbrecht

Reasonably happy with that team considering the circumstances. I would have started Lambie ahead of Kirchner and I wouldn't have played M. Steyn. The rest of the team pick themselves

What is your opinion of the play and future potential of Marcell Coetzee?
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
I doubt we will ever see Bekker and Kruger together except if one of them comes off the bench.

They are both seen as no 5's.

It would be worth a go though.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
That's a shame, what happened? What's his status?

News24
Meyer: JP injury a massive blow


2012-08-07 07:49

Cape Town - Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer says wing JP Pietersen's injury is a massive blow for his side ahead of the Rugby Championship.

Pietersen fractured his thumb in the Super Rugby final in Hamilton on Saturday which will sideline him for the next two months.

Meyer said Pietersen, who starred consistently for the Sharks and the national team against England just over a month ago, will be hard to replace in the light of his "awesome" form this year.

"Right now I'm feeling quite nervous after the news that JP won't be playing," said Meyer.

"He's been awesome this year for the Sharks, and against England he was outstanding. It is a massive blow for the Springboks."

Springbok team doctor Craig Roberts confirmed Pietersen had broken a thumb in the Super Rugby final and required surgery.

"JP will have surgery on Wednesday, and the rehab after an operation like this takes six to eight weeks," Roberts said.

As a result, Juan de Jongh has been thrown a lifeline by Meyer and will join the squad.

"We have decided to call up Juan to provide midfield cover," said Meyer.

"It is an area where we may be a bit short now that JP is not available.

"JP was always going to provide cover for us at outside centre.
 

ACR

Desmond Connor (43)

Ah, that sucks. Probably one of the most annoying injuries too. Being perfectly fit, form of your life and it's just a finger that's holding you back.

I think the Boks have a strong enough squad anyway, especially in the forwards. It will the AB's or Boks to win me thinks.
 

Lee Enfield

Jimmy Flynn (14)
Well, I just put a fiver on the Argies to win by 1-5. It's not that I think they will win, but the odds were good and well, if they can produce the sort of effort they did in the RWC, who knows they might come up with a win. Sometimes the roughie wins.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Some rugby history between the two countries
Rugby365
Go to Argentina when the Springboks are there and see the obvious Argentinian affection for them. A little bit of history tells you why this is so. To Argentina rugby, South Africa has been a generous uncle.

The connection started in 1905. It started with that great man Fairy Heatlie, who started playing rugby for the first time when he came to Bishops as an 18-year-old and then played for South Africa the very next year - the youngest forward ever to play for South Africa. He played for South Africa in 1891, 1896 and 1903, a giant of a man - and, captain in 1896 and 1903, he gave South Africa the green jersey which the Springboks still wear. He was earmarked to captain the first South African team to head to the Home Unions, as they did in 1906, but tragedy struck.

Heatlie was the stuff of Greek tragedy. He who rose to great heights came crashing down, his hamartia perhaps greed, perhaps dealing beyond his ability. He was to be arrested when he got to a ship in Table Bay and sailed off to Argentina, where he battled to make ends meet. He was eventually brought back to South Africa, stood trial and was sentenced to two years' hard labour. Sentence served he managed to get back to Argentina where his wife and two sons were. And in Argentina he played rugby. In fact he played till he was 48 when broken ribs forced his 'early' retirement. A great rugby thinker he had his impact on the country's rugby.

In 1910 the first touring team came from Britain to Argentina and they played a Test, Argentina's first Test, and in their team was Barry Heatlie. Having played against the first three such teams to tour South Africa, he played in the first to tour Argentina and his name is on the list of Argentinian internationals - the first South African to play for two countries, as Frank Hellish, Jack Gage, John Allen and Tiaan Strauss did later.

In 1932 a powerful Junior Springbok team, captained by Joe Nykamp, swept through Argentina winning all nine of their matches including two against Argentina. Their manager was the great Paul Roos. After the tour he wrote: "One may express the hope that the day is not far distant when our late hosts will have developed and improved their game sufficiently to become our guests and throw down the gauntlet to the best we can pit against them."

That day is now!

The next contact was after World War II. The Junior Springboks toured - a great side which won both internationals but by small margins. But then came 1965, probably the greatest date in the history of Argentinian rugby, the year the Pumas were born.

In that year the first Argentinian team left the South America to tour abroad and they went to South Africa. To prepare them the South African Rugby Board had sent the innovative Natal coach Izak van Heerden to Argentina, and how the country reveres him. That team, captained by Aitor Otaño became the first to be called the Pumas when a South African journalist mistook the cat on their badge for a puma when really it was a jaguarete. Pumas they have stayed. They are proud to be Pumas. They left Argentina quietly, became Pumas and beat the Junior Springboks at Ellis Park, for them an incredible achievement, which they celebrated at great length, loath to leave Ellis Park. They changed Argentinian rugby which was now ready to face the world.

The Gazelles (South Africa Under-23) toured and then Argentina beat Wales, Scotland and Ireland in successive years. They drew with England at Twickenham in 1978.

They would have loved to come to South Africa but the politics of the day, expressing universal abhorrence of apartheid, militated against rugby Politics got in the way of contact between Argentina and South Africa but they found a way round that - forming the South American XV, the Jaguars, who toured South Africa in 1980, 1982 and 1984 and playing the Springboks in South America in 1980 when they played the matches in Uruguay and Chile. This was the heyday of the great Hugo Porta, one of rugby football's finest.

And in 1980 the Springboks went off to South America. Barred from Argentina they played two Tests against the Jaguars in Montevideo and Santiago. And in that Springbokm team for the very first time was a black player - the great Errol Tobias.

The Jaguars were players from Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Peru, Brazil and, in 1984, Spain. But essentially they were Argentinians. You will read that the Pumas have never beaten the Springboks. Technically that is right; morally it was as wrong as wrong can be.

In 1982 the Springboks beat the Jaguars 50-18 in Pretoria but in Bloemfontein Porta scored in all four ways and amassed 21 points as the Jaguars beat the Springboks 21-12. One of those playing for the Jaguars that day was Marcelo Loffreda, now the Pumas' coach, the man largely lauded for the success of the current Pumas. That team of Jaguars was made up entirely of Pumas. The Pumas by any other name....

Politics allowed Argentina and South Africa to meet as Pumas and Springboks on the rugby field in 1992 and the next year off the Springboks went down South America way in mid-summer.

Look at the results and you will see that matches between the two countries have been high-scoring affairs. The Pumas came close in 2000 when eccentric coach Harry Viljoen forbade the Springboks to kick and they came close to losing. But the closest to a Puma victory was in Port Elizabeth in 2003 when a last-minute penalty goal by Louis Koen won the match for the Springboks.

Close rivalry is the keenest, and the Pumas would love to beat the Springboks - only because they love them so. The Springboks are a benchmark in Argentina.
 
R

RuckinGoodStats

Guest
All the Los Puma fans and friends I know point out that the Argentina team that played against the French in the June tests are not going to be playing the in The Rugby Championship. Looking at the stats from those two games, you’d really have to hope so. If not it will be a long rookie season for our South American friends.

Let’s look at the numbers to back that up, comparing the Springboks June tests who played England to the Argentina’s two games against France.

For a start the Springboks are playing the game at a completely different (and faster pace). The ball is in play 44.7% of the time for the Springboks, 39.8% for Los Pumas. In the first half that the real difference in pace can be seen. If Springboks make sure the ball is contestable for just under 19 minutes, their June average, Argentina won’t be able to keep up given they are averaging just under 15 minutes.

South Africa spent an average of 20.1% of the game inside England’s 22. Argentina spent about half of that or an average on 10.9% of the time inside the French 22. The Springboks averaged 57.7% territory compared to the 42.0% Los Pumas averaged. That is a massive statistical significant difference.

When it comes to tries conceded Argentina were averaging 3.5 per game compared the around half or 1.7 that South Africa conceded.

The Springbok had (maybe they still do) a clear strategy of pushing the ball down the right side channel. This is the side they scored the bulk of their tries and kicked penalties on. It also the side they conceded the bulk of their tries and let the English kick penalties on. So while it might be a better attacking side it is also their weak defensive side.

Both Argentina and South Africa are similar for breaking tackles and missing them. Argentina were on average breaking 1 in 5.6 French tackle attempts compared to the 1 in 6.0 the Springbok broke of the English tackle attempts. When it comes to missing tackles Argentina are missing, on average 1 in 5.4 attempts compared to South Africa who miss 1 in 5.6. For the Springboks fans this is much much better than the 1 in 3 missed tackles in 2011. I coded them all so applied the same definition in both seasons.

A real concern is the lost possessions/turnovers conceded by Los Pumas. They are making one every 39 seconds in possession. This is really low and bad. To it in perspective the Hurricanes had the worse stats for lost possessions/turnovers in SuperRugby, conceding one every 45 seconds. The Springboks are averaging every 63 seconds.

Penalties in possession are another issue for Los Puma, 40% of the penalties they concede will be in possession.

What is a little strange and may suggest an inability to finish is that Argentina are averaging 4.0 offloads and 3.5 clean line breaks per game, yet only won one of their two French test.

Los Pumas will be looking to turnover/steal more than the 1.7% of defensive rucks, especially since the Springboks are averaging 3.0%. Argentina lost more rucks, an average of 5.2% per game on average compared to the 2.9% that South Africa lose.

These team had different kick strategies. Argentina opted to make a tactical kick from t hand every 47 seconds, statically longer than South Africa who opted to make a tactical kick every 38 seconds (note 9). However the French would kick to Los Pumas every 36 seconds, close the the 33 seconds that the English were kicking to the Springboks.

These team are losing about the same amount of lineouts in the air. Argentina are losing 14.2% compared to 14.4%. That is a lot. Given that Los Puma didn’t win one of the French lineout in the area, the Springboks will want to target that and improve on the 11.1% they stole off the English.

The set piece that is of more concern is the scrum. Most rugby writers will talk up Los Pumas scrum based on historical knowledge. They might be surprised that Argentina losing i.e. tighthead an average of 2.5 scrums per game (note 17). That is massive. These are tightheads here and not counting infringements here. Argentina are conceding a scrum infringement 13.3% of all scrums in their games. Springboks are worse with 19.2%, which is very similar to the Bulls in the SuperRugby who conceded the most out of any of the teams.
 
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