2012 England tour to SA

[Lee Grant]

I don't think Armitage would be released by Toulon

Yeah - I thought of that, but Palmer of Stade Francais was selected.

I wasn't thinking about Armitage for the test team: just to get into the squad and have somebody different from the Borg of backrow notters on the assembly line for later on.

He would have gotten leave from the Toulon club to attend the England training sessions. The Top14 final is on the same day as the 1st test but he could have played in the two midweek games after that.

If Toulon didn't make the final, there would hardly be a problem.

Lancaster has made a few brave selection decisions; I thought that this could have been another one.
.

 

[Mank]

2. He mentioned Jean captaincy but he also like Meisiekind current form and look like Meisiekind/JdJ will slot in 13 with Jean in 12.

My geus the Bokline vs the Poms will look like:
Lambie, JPP, Meisiekind, JdV, Habana, M Steyn, Hougaard.

Wynand back again? How many times will that guy get picked only to underwhelm at international level? Some players excel at the level below test rugby, but never step up. Wynand Olivier has proved this to be the case, what, 34 times?

Unfortunately we are short a captain at the moment, because Frans Steyn should play 12, not Jean de Villiers.

Whitehead at 12 for the Sharks has impressed me this season. He runs great lines, support play is excellent, quite a rarity in SA backs. Decent front on defence, but a bit worried about his organisation.

 

[PaarlBok]

Look like Jean will play 13. he played there most of his schooldays. Whitehead is still way behind JdJ in the line.

 

[Mank]

JdJ is good, and proven over multiple seasons, agree he's ahead, but keep an eye on Whitehead.

 

[Blue]

Wynand back again? How many times will that guy get picked only to underwhelm at international level? Some players excel at the level below test rugby, but never step up. Wynand Olivier has proved this to be the case, what, 34 times?

Unfortunately we are short a captain at the moment, because Frans Steyn should play 12, not Jean de Villiers.

Whitehead at 12 for the Sharks has impressed me this season. He runs great lines, support play is excellent, quite a rarity in SA backs. Decent front on defence, but a bit worried about his organisation.

I don't ever want to see Wynand in Green again. For years he has shown good Super Rugby form, gets picked for the Boks, and turns to pooh.

Heyneke is going to go conservative and will make as few as possible rookie selections. Having said that I would still play JdV and JdJ. They are a combination and their defense is fantastic. My second choice is F Steyn at 12 with JdV at 13.

Whitehead cetainly looks good but has not done nearly enough to be a Bok bolter. Frans Steyn and JdJ for me is the combo that should take us to the next World Cup.

 

[Mank]

Heyneke is going to go conservative and will make as few as possible rookie selections. Having said that I would still play JdV and JdJ. They are a combination and their defense is fantastic. My second choice is F Steyn at 12 with JdV at 13.

Yup, fair enough, I'm a big believer in combinations, and if that combo is working then could do worse than keeping them together.

However, I do think Frans Steyn is a player to pick against England. Hard to pin down why I think that, probably a combination of size, power, brutal defence, and massive boot, fit the game required to beat England.

 

[PaarlBok]

News 24

Cape Town - Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer will hold a fourth and final Planning Camp in Durban from Sunday, with 42 players across all five Vodacom Super Rugby franchises invited to attend.

This will be the final opportunity for Meyer to work with the players before the final Springbok squad to face England will converge in Durban on Sunday, June 3.

The camp this weekend will take place on Sunday 27 and Monday, May 28. The players will depart Durban around midday on Monday and will be back with their Super Rugby franchises for training in the afternoon.

“We discussed this with the franchise CEOs recently and they’ve been very accommodating, as they were earlier in the season,” said Meyer.

“We’ve planned it in Durban, because the Stormers take on the Sharks at Kings Park the day before and will be there already. Players from the Bulls, Lions and Cheetahs will fly in on Sunday morning.

“This is by no means a final Springbok squad and the door will be open for all our eligible players until the announcement of the squad that will take on England.

“This camp will put in place a number of the finer details in terms of what we want to achieve against England. We will hit the ground running on June 3, when we converge in Durban for the first Test with a final squad.”

Meyer said that they will keep in touch with the Super Rugby franchises regarding injured players, but that they weren’t considered for this camp.

Players invited to the final Springbok Planning Camp in Durban on May 27-28:

Forwards (22):
Coenie Oosthuizen, Tendai Mtawarira, Dean Greyling, Jannie du Plessis, Pat Cilliers, Werner Kruger, Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Flip van der Merwe, Eben Etzebeth, Andries Bekker, Juandré Kruger, Marcell Coetzee, CJ Stander, Heinrich Brüssow, Keegan Daniel, Willem Alberts, Jean Deysel, Pierre Spies, Ryan Kankowski, Josh Strauss

Backs (20):
Francois Hougaard, Jano Vermaak, Piet van Zyl, Morné Steyn, Pat Lambie, Elton Jantjies, Peter Grant, Wynand Olivier, Jean de Villiers, Juan de Jongh, JJ Engelbrecht, Bryan Habana, Bjorn Basson, JP Pietersen, Gio Aplon, Lwazi Mvovo, Akona Ndungane, Zane Kirchner, Jaco Taute, Joe Pietersen

No Kolisi?

 

[PaarlBok]

or Ebersohn, Whitehead, Ashley.

Good to see Josh Strauss, Taute in the mix.

 

[Ulrich]

Ebersohn probably missed out because other known midfield would need to be compromised in order to accommodate him i.e JdV & JdJ, Olivier & JJ Engelbrecht etc. Glad to see a few other names there

I believe Taute and JJ Engelbrecht will have a good chance for the 13 jumper (although judging by the draught of the list it appears Taute is preferred at 15). Elstadt also didn't make it. Johnson is heading overseas so not too disappointed that he wasn't selected. Also, I believe the other loosies are so good anyway it won't matter.

Consider injured, young as well as overseas Boks...

Duane Vermeulen
Siya Kolisi
Dewald Potgieter
Schalk Burger
Rynhard Elstadt
Ruan Pienaar
Francois Steyn
Nizaam Carr
Steven Kitshoff
Johan Sadie (although recent form has been poor)
Frans Malherbe

 

[Blue]

News 24


No Kolisi?

Agree he should be there but ahead of who?

I can see the problem though. Not sure how you pick a balanced test back row with Kolisi in it. He is not really a fetcher, not a typically big South African 7 and canlt see him play 8.

It's tough one because he is good.

Coetzee? Well you cannot ignore his stats.

Stander? Typical 7 that Meyer will just like. Bulls or not.

Josh Strauss? Not sure we will see him in a test.

 

[Blue]

So no Frans Steyn in Meyer's squad does that mean he is not picking him for England?

Where is Frans Steyn right now?

The frog season is over?

 

[PaarlBok]

So no Frans Steyn in Meyer's squad does that mean he is not picking him for England?

Where is Frans Steyn right now?

The frog season is over?

Sport24

Boks' overseas player dilemma2012-04-16 16:57Email | Print
Johannesburg - Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer will use a few overseas-based players for the Test series against England in June, but may well be forced to use a totally local squad for the Castle Rugby Championship later in the year.
The Tests against England fall under Regulation 9 of the International Rugby Board, meaning clubs have to release any players selected for the national squad, but the Rugby Championship does not, and the South African Rugby Union will have to negotiate their release for the four nations tournament.
Meyer has made it clear that he will be choosing the best side available for the England Tests, but has already declined to invite any overseas based players to the training camps as it is simply not viable.

“Most of the players overseas really want to play for their country. There are many more administrative challenges though with getting them here. According to the IRB Regulations, we can invite the players in the week of a Test match and they have to be here,” Meyer said.

“You can’t unfortunately bring the guys in for the training camps as many of them have contracts and agreements with their respective clubs overseas. SA Rugby do have a list of names and they are busy negotiating with their respective clubs. It is difficult to just call someone in from overseas though.

“I had a number of good discussions with players that are overseas. There are a number of players putting their hands up for selection, both overseas and here but there is a fine line in selection. We will know shortly who is available and when they are available.”

Meyer said while he was definitely interested in some players, the bulk of the squad would come out of the five franchises currently playing Super Rugby. And that means against England experience will be key.

“I’m definitely looking at some overseas players, especially against England I want to play the best available team. Experience will play a big role in this, but as you know it isn’t as easy to just get players here. Everyone is very positive at the moment so I hope we can keep this energy flowing behind the team.”

South Africa face England in the first of three Tests on June 9 in Durban.

 

[PaarlBok]

Agree he should be there but ahead of who?

I can see the problem though. Not sure how you pick a balanced test back row with Kolisi in it. He is not really a fetcher, not a typically big South African 7 and canlt see him play 8.

It's tough one because he is good.

Coetzee? Well you cannot ignore his stats.

Stander? Typical 7 that Meyer will just like. Bulls or not.

Josh Strauss? Not sure we will see him in a test.

Coetzee stats

If he want a proper SA 7, he may just aswell go for Elstadt.

 

[Brisbok]

Ebersohn probably missed out because other known midfield would need to be compromised in order to accommodate him i.e JdV & JdJ, Olivier & JJ Engelbrecht etc. Glad to see a few other names there

I believe Taute and JJ Engelbrecht will have a good chance for the 13 jumper (although judging by the draught of the list it appears Taute is preferred at 15). Elstadt also didn't make it. Johnson is heading overseas so not too disappointed that he wasn't selected. Also, I believe the other loosies are so good anyway it won't matter.

Consider injured, young as well as overseas Boks...

Duane Vermeulen
Siya Kolisi
Dewald Potgieter
Schalk Burger
Rynhard Elstadt
Ruan Pienaar
Francois Steyn
Nizaam Carr
Steven Kitshoff
Johan Sadie (although recent form has been poor)
Frans Malherbe

I'd have to disagree there. JJ has only played a handful of games for the Bulls at 13 and mainly when Sadie has been injured. He certainly hasn't set the world alight in his time there either, particularly on defence. If he struggled defensively against the Rebels, he could be horribly exposed at test level! Meyer obviously rates him to include him in this training squad but I think he will be one of the first to go once the squad is trimmed down.

IMO, the centre combination will be one of the following:

12 - F. Steyn, 13 - de Villiers
12 - de Villiers, 13 - de Jongh
12 - Olivier, 13 - de Villiers (certainly not my choice, but I think Heyneke is a fan of Wynand)

 

[Brisbok]

Furthermore, I can't work out why there would be a need to include 6 specialist winger's, 7 if you include JJ, in a training squad of this size?! Doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, it must be quite disappointing for Duvenage and McLeod to find out that they are rated, at best, the 5th and 6th best scrumhalves in South Africa (if you consider that du Preez and Pienaar were not included on that list) under the new coaching regime. I would not be surprised if either of these two decides to go chase a big money move overseas in the next year or two.

 

[Blue]

Yeah JJ Englelbrecht to me is the most lucky to make the squad. HE hasn't done anything special but I suppose he has been played out of position.

Duvenhage: Solid but not spectacular.

McCleod: Error prone.

They will probably both leave soon because they are no chance.

Paarl:

A South African 7 needs to be able to carry the ball. Never more so than under Heyneke. Elstadt barely ever carries and when he does he almost never breaks the line. He is a great player, but he doesn't have all the skills for a test 7 who has to be able to break the line. He gets tackled back surprisingly easily for a guy of his size. Maybe it is a technique issue but until he fixes it consistently he will not be picked. I'm a fan, but he only has part of the package. Fact.

 

[Blue]

Coetzee stats

If he want a proper SA 7, he may just aswell go for Elstadt.

Tell you what Coetzee can get handed off like that once every game because he'll get up and make another 20 tackles in the game.I'd have him before Elstad every day of the week.

 

[Bardon]

Interesting view from John Smit on what is in store for England's SA born players:

England's SA-born players can expect 'special attention'
Former Springbok captain John Smit has warned England's South African-born players to expect extra scrutiny during their upcoming tour.

The two sides will contest a three-match Test series in June.

"They will certainly get special attention. The media will be all over them when they arrive," said 111-times capped forward Smit.

"I suppose it's a little bit spicier now they're playing against the country they were born in."

Matt Stevens, Brad Barritt and Mouritz Botha were all born in South Africa - and are Smit's Saracens team-mates - but chose to ply their international careers with England.

Stevens and Barritt qualify through English relations, while Botha has taken advantage of the residency rule, which allows a player to represent a country after living there for three successive years.

"It's always a contentious issue. There's far too much made of it," said hooker Smit, who will skipper the Barbarians against England on Sunday.

"But at the end of the day they've made their decisions and they've done really well to work themselves into an international team.

"It's something that adds to making rugby union more exciting. They'll get some special attention on game day. But it will all dissipate once the first week's out of the way."

Hooker Smit retired from Springbok duty following last year's World Cup and remains his country's most capped player.

He was born in Durban, the location for the first Test between South Africa and England, and has urged the tourists to take advantage of it being Heyneke Meyer's first game as Springbok coach.

"I think if England are ambitious, the first Test is one they need to capitalise on," he said.

"South Africa will only get better and better each week they spend with their new coach.

"Sadly they are going to Durban first, which will be the most comfortable of their entire stay.

"I would have quite liked them to be put into the darkest corners of South Africa for the first week or two.

"They will be at sea level, so they won't feel that burn or the taste of blood in the back of their throats after 20 minutes, which they will feel the next week in Johannesburg."

 

[Ulrich]

I'd have to disagree there. JJ has only played a handful of games for the Bulls at 13 and mainly when Sadie has been injured. He certainly hasn't set the world alight in his time there either, particularly on defence. If he struggled defensively against the Rebels, he could be horribly exposed at test level! Meyer obviously rates him to include him in this training squad but I think he will be one of the first to go once the squad is trimmed down.

IMO, the centre combination will be one of the following:

12 - F. Steyn, 13 - de Villiers
12 - de Villiers, 13 - de Jongh
12 - Olivier, 13 - de Villiers (certainly not my choice, but I think Heyneke is a fan of Wynand)

I think in the Rugby Championship it will probably be F.Steyn and de Villiers and yes, I agree JJ has not set the world alight perhaps at 13 yet, however I've heard good things about the lad. Perhaps later in his career. On that point, I don't like de Villiers at 13. Personally I feel a 12 is a 12 and a 13 is a 13. Look at the difference in performance of Steyn at 12 and at 13, de Villiers at 12 and at 13 and also de Jongh, who is better at 13.

Fantasy combination:

9. Hougaard
10. Goosen
12. F. Steyn
13. J. Taute

He gets tackled back surprisingly easily for a guy of his size. Maybe it is a technique issue but until he fixes it consistently he will not be picked.

The same can be said about Spies. Also remember that Elstadt has not found the form he had last season but he is steadily improving at number 7.

 

[Blue]

I think in the Rugby Championship it will probably be F.Steyn and de Villiers and yes, I agree JJ has not set the world alight perhaps at 13 yet, however I've heard good things about the lad. Perhaps later in his career. On that point, I don't like de Villiers at 13. Personally I feel a 12 is a 12 and a 13 is a 13. Look at the difference in performance of Steyn at 12 and at 13, de Villiers at 12 and at 13 and also de Jongh, who is better at 13.

Fantasy combination:

9. Hougaard
10. Goosen
12. F. Steyn
13. J. Taute

The same can be said about Spies. Also remember that Elstadt has not found the form he had last season but he is steadily improving at number 7.

Why would anyone want Taute at 13 ahead of de Jongh??

What has he done at 13? Nothing.

On another front Dewald Potgieter just played himself right into Bok reckoning with his best game in 2 years.