Western Force 2025

[Yoda]

I think the finals bit is relevant. If the Force had made the finals in 5th or 6th and had to fly to NZ for a quarter final (or whatever we want to call it) then having a bye in the last round would be fantastic.



This to me is the interesting (and important bit). What do the Force actually want and what requests are being made to the competition before each season?

BH. Not sure teams actually have a say in the draw? If they did the Force wouldn’t have had a schedule like this season compared to the Tahs … ?

 

[Braveheart81]

BH. Not sure teams actually have a say in the draw? If they did the Force wouldn’t have had a schedule like this season compared to the Tahs … ?

I don't know how much say teams ultimately get in the draw but they can certainly make requests.

There's already significant scheduling around ground availability and major events.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Force have been the FTA game 9 times - more than anyone else I think? I wonder how much that commercial stuff plays into team's thinking?

 

[rugbyAU]

Well that was another disappointing season - just four wins from fourteen games, it's hard to see any strong impact by Cron

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

What is the mark for Cron to keep his job at the end of next year? Besides any external candidate factors but an enough is enough moment.

Results now are 5 wins, 4 wins, 4 wins right? Had the chance to build and recruit who he’s wanted. We’ve all heard the superlatives and Rugby IP and all that crap.

If he sneaks into the finals which in Super Rugby is a low bar is that enough? Enough for more 6 win seasons?

My concern is the lack of kids being sighted or brought through and blooded beside Pearce. It’s the RA of 15 years ago where we sit them saying not ready then at 22-23 put them out there and go oh fuck he’s shit. Yeah, he hasn’t played any meaningful footy in 4 years.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

What is the mark for Cron to keep his job at the end of next year? Besides any external candidate factors but an enough is enough moment.

Results now are 5 wins, 4 wins, 4 wins right? Had the chance to build and recruit who he’s wanted. We’ve all heard the superlatives and Rugby IP and all that crap.

If he sneaks into the finals which in Super Rugby is a low bar is that enough? Enough for more 6 win seasons?

My concern is the lack of kids being sighted or brought through and blooded beside Pearce. It’s the RA of 15 years ago where we sit them saying not ready then at 22-23 put them out there and go oh fuck he’s shit. Yeah, he hasn’t played any meaningful footy in 4 years.

Watching the U20s recently and then listening to Whitakers interview about the amount of time they have together in the lead in to the U20s which accounted for about 2 weeks in total I started thinking about how we could improve the development of those players.

One option I thought of would be to look to centralise a broader U20s squad and run them in one of the club comps. Brisbane would be the option I'd choose as it's a 9 team comp and there's a gap in the schedule in the form of bye each round. Base them out of Ballymore and expose them to full time S&C and development.

Going from their performance against Japan U23s who were also beaten by a rag tag Randwick I think they'll be at least competitive in a club comp. But it would give them more time to build cohesion as a squad. When the graduate out they then can move on to their respective SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) bases.

The other option is of course Super AU or SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) B. Which actually would be my preferred option. Not sure we could convince NZ to commit to a SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) B given their financial losses of late though.

We could adopt a similar format to the Super 6 formerly used in Scotland. Have our 4 bases plus a centralised U20s and the Drua play each other across a 15 game season.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Watching the U20s recently and then listening to Whitakers interview about the amount of time they have together in the lead in to the U20s which accounted for about 2 weeks in total I started thinking about how we could improve the development of those players.

One option I thought of would be to look to centralise a broader U20s squad and run them in one of the club comps. Brisbane would be the option I'd choose as it's a 9 team comp and there's a gap in the schedule in the form of bye each round. Base them out of Ballymore and expose them to full time S&C and development.

Going from their performance against Japan U23s who were also beaten by a rag tag Randwick I think they'll be at least competitive in a club comp. But it would give them more time to build cohesion as a squad. When the graduate out they then can move on to their respective SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) (Super Rugby Pacific) bases.

The other option is of course Super AU or SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) (Super Rugby Pacific) B. Which actually would be my preferred option. Not sure we could convince NZ to commit to a SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) (Super Rugby Pacific) B given their financial losses of late though.

We could adopt a similar format to the Super 6 formerly used in Scotland. Have our 4 bases plus a centralised U20s and the Drua play each other across a 15 game season.

Super Rugby A comp for me is the best.

My point was more about the Force and bringing guys through which seems non existent atm. It’s reaching into Shute Shield for stop gaps.

 

[Nuggetyflyhalf]

Force haven’t really improved unfortunately.

 

[Mr Pilfer]

Hard to believe they only won 4 out of 14, definitely felt like they were better this year and improving but still not getting the results.
Away form is not good enough and need to win the close ones.

Still think losing 2 props for the season before round 1 was a massive factor and not to mention the fact all the rebels players were directed to other clubs.

I think cron is working hard on bringing Aussies back from overseas so hopefully he pulls off a couple more big signings.

 

[rugbyAU]

The other Aus teams all still have higher quality sides

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Hard to believe they only won 4 out of 14, definitely felt like they were better this year and improving but still not getting the results.
Away form is not good enough and need to win the close ones.

Still think losing 2 props for the season before round 1 was a massive factor and not to mention the fact all the rebels players were directed to other clubs.

I think cron is working hard on bringing Aussies back from overseas so hopefully he pulls off a couple more big signings.

The Props is a big factor but with the players. Do we know they were "directed" or chose to go to NSW and QLD mostly?

 

[Wilson]

One option I thought of would be to look to centralise a broader U20s squad and run them in one of the club comps. Brisbane would be the option I'd choose as it's a 9 team comp and there's a gap in the schedule in the form of bye each round. Base them out of Ballymore and expose them to full time S&C and development.

I can't imagine this being anything other than prohibitively expensive - you're paying to relocate 20+ players for a fairly long time and putting them in what sounds like a fully professional program, without them likely to bring in any real revenue in return. That's before you get to the part were you'd have to convince the tahs, Brumbies and Force to give up access to the their top under 20s players during the super season.

They absolutely need more rugby though, but I'd look to a formal under 20s comp in the early rounds of super, instead of a 'B' comp. You can then add in a bit more in the way of warm up games before the rugby champs (possibles v probables, shute shield or hospital cup barbarians, hosting Japan, Fiji, etc) and some sort of end of year test schedule after the Super Rugby u19s, ideally a tour.

 

[Dctarget]

Force injuries were no worse than other sides, just don't have the depth to sustain it. Doesn't seem to be many signing announcements out of Perth, looks like a largely similar squad for next year?

Proctor has had a great paid holiday in Aus for two years. Shame because if he was fit and put out a performance half as good as his brother he'd be an asset.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

I can't imagine this being anything other than prohibitively expensive - you're paying to relocate 20+ players for a fairly long time and putting them in what sounds like a fully professional program, without them likely to bring in any real revenue in return. That's before you get to the part were you'd have to convince the tahs, Brumbies and Force to give up access to the their top under 20s players during the super season.

They absolutely need more rugby though, but I'd look to a formal under 20s comp in the early rounds of super, instead of a 'B' comp. You can then add in a bit more in the way of warm up games before the rugby champs (possibles v probables, shute shield or hospital cup barbarians, hosting Japan, Fiji, etc) and some sort of end of year test schedule after the Super Rugby u19s, ideally a tour.

And the weakening of the other comps not chosen to host said side. Take out these guys who do feature in 1st grade throughout the year wouldn't go down well and does nothing for the Super Rugby sides to have their players learn a system which may not be anything like the one who pays them and wants them to fit in when required.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I can't imagine this being anything other than prohibitively expensive - you're paying to relocate 20+ players for a fairly long time and putting them in what sounds like a fully professional program, without them likely to bring in any real revenue in return. That's before you get to the part were you'd have to convince the tahs, Brumbies and Force to give up access to the their top under 20s players during the super season.

They absolutely need more rugby though, but I'd look to a formal under 20s comp in the early rounds of super, instead of a 'B' comp. You can then add in a bit more in the way of warm up games before the rugby champs (possibles v probables, shute shield or hospital cup barbarians, hosting Japan, Fiji, etc) and some sort of end of year test schedule after the Super Rugby u19s, ideally a tour.

Obviously if a player is good enough to be playing SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) at 20 they would remain as part of their respective franchises primary squad.

But we do need some sort of level of competition in order to develop younger players instead of warehousing them and confining them to anything less than 1st grade Premier Rugby.

Which is why I suggested a centralised squad competing in either a Premier Comp or a Super AU. I'd actually prefer the Super AU with these guys training in pro environments and playing an organised schedule running alongside SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) against teams above that of club Rugby.

Same for the guys from the U18s. Expand the JNRC U19s by two teams and move it to align with SRP (Super Rugby Pacific).

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Feel as though we are edging toward an organised A comp or whatever you want to call it. Seen more A games than previous years with the Tahs and Brums having at least 3 I think in the first half of the season and it featured a heap of guys that ended up in the Aus 20s. Our premier Club comps just don't have the standard to justify the spend as nice as the nostalgic vision is.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Do we know they were "directed" or chose to go to NSW and QLD mostly?

The CBA says RA can't do that (we don't have the current CBA, but the clauses are probably very similar to this one)

The Rugby Bodies hereby covenant and warrant that during the Term they will not, without the written consent of RUPA, introduce any rules, by-laws, schemes, arrangements, systems of operation or the like that have the effect of enabling the Rugby Bodies to transfer, draft or require a Player to play in a State or Territory of Australia other than the one in which he is domiciled

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Great, but were they directed to Eastern state sides or is that what we are saying because the Force are disappointing and it helps to point at others. Was anyone on the line and then yanked to the Reds or Tahs?

 

[Wilson]

Obviously if a player is good enough to be playing SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) (Super Rugby Pacific) at 20 they would remain as part of their respective franchises primary squad.

But we do need some sort of level of competition in order to develop younger players instead of warehousing them and confining them to anything less than 1st grade Premier Rugby.

Which is why I suggested a centralised squad competing in either a Premier Comp or a Super AU. I'd actually prefer the Super AU with these guys training in pro environments and playing an organised schedule running alongside SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) (Super Rugby Pacific) against teams above that of club Rugby.

Same for the guys from the U18s. Expand the JNRC U19s by two teams and move it to align with SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) (Super Rugby Pacific).

Whether or not a player is "good enough" to be playing super rugby is usually down to who is available ahead of them and that changes pretty quickly with injuries. If you want to support this by making sure we're filling out out squads so that we don't need u20s players than great, that's a positive step for the super rugby sides, but also an expensive one. And that's still the major issue with running a national under 20s squad based in any specific city over the long term - you need to pay these players and pay for their relocation if you want to do it, and those costs add up quickly. As far as I can tell it is a complete non-starter.

I also don't think you get much from moving the under 19s to line up with super rugby - it's well placed where it is right now after the club season to add in extra rugby for these guys and start the prep of next years under 20s. Anything that lines up with super rugby should focus on the current years crop and selection/prep for the world cup. You can then run Super Rugby AU in the same window as the under 19s to get the graduating 20s more opportunity and hopefully offset costs by syncing the schedules.

I generally like the idea of adding a couple of teams to the under 19s to cast a wider net, though I think the biggest bang for our buck right now would be a couple of test matches for a Wallabies under 19 squad after that comp. Get the guys who are going to make up next years under 20s together and into that environment to lay down the foundations and test some combinations. If this could be tacked onto the Wallabies EOYT, playing some of the six nations under 19/20s squads it would be ideal, getting theses players exposed to different rugby, getting them used to travelling and taking advantage of a tour to really immerse them in the program. Theoretically there might also be some savings to be had in combining with the Wallabies (and possibly Australia A) touring parties.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Whether or not a player is "good enough" to be playing super rugby is usually down to who is available ahead of them and that changes pretty quickly with injuries. If you want to support this by making sure we're filling out out squads so that we don't need u20s players than great, that's a positive step for the super rugby sides, but also an expensive one. And that's still the major issue with running a national under 20s squad based in any specific city over the long term - you need to pay these players and pay for their relocation if you want to do it, and those costs add up quickly. As far as I can tell it is a complete non-starter.

I also don't think you get much from moving the under 19s to line up with super rugby - it's well placed where it is right now after the club season to add in extra rugby for these guys and start the prep of next years under 20s. Anything that lines up with super rugby should focus on the current years crop and selection/prep for the world cup. You can then run Super Rugby AU in the same window as the under 19s to get the graduating 20s more opportunity and hopefully offset costs by syncing the schedules.

I generally like the idea of adding a couple of teams to the under 19s to cast a wider net, though I think the biggest bang for our buck right now would be a couple of test matches for a Wallabies under 19 squad after that comp. Get the guys who are going to make up next years under 20s together and into that environment to lay down the foundations and test some combinations. If this could be tacked onto the Wallabies EOYT, playing some of the six nations under 19/20s squads it would be ideal, getting theses players exposed to different rugby, getting them used to travelling and taking advantage of a tour to really immerse them in the program. Theoretically there might also be some savings to be had in combining with the Wallabies (and possibly Australia A) touring parties.

You cannot build depth and competitive environments with the current system where the step down between SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) and club Rugby is so huge. Especially for emerging talent.

I suggested a centralised squad but it's not necessarily needed if a orgnaised Super Au was in place giving the likes of EPS and U20s more competitive game time alongside greater exposure to professional development. That's what this is about. Putting in place systems to improve the development and readiness of the next cohort of players. That is also why you would align the U19s. To get them emersed in the systems and developing at a level beyond that of grade rugby at the Premier level.

For aspirarional players that would be an attractive opportunity. I knew a number of really good footballers growing up that chose League because they viewed it as a better development opportunity than staying in Rugby. This is back in the days of the NRL U20s Comp. It wasn't a money consideration. Most weren't on much at all. But they got thevopportunity to be exposed to the next level over an extended period as opposed to a 2 month period separate from the rest of the schedule we run now.

I do like the idea of organised Test schedules for the U20s beyond the RC and JWC. Ideally, they would plat the U20s equivalent of whoever is touring here in June and potentially tour the NH in November. But in terms of development having them playing exclusively their peers doesn't help them take the next step.