Western Force 2025

[Adam84]

Tahs always get the side swipe in these convos about crowds. Just worry about building crowds. Waratahs have more sport team competition than any other franchise in Aus if people want to play those games which in general I think are moot because people follow their sport with vary few going to multiple.

For a side coming off the spoon getting 20,572 48% capacity is a good result. Reds crowd for the derby v the Tahs was 20,072 38% which was heralded as the biggest since the SuperAU final...

A much more even comp should keep the numbers and grow them as the Aus sides are considered competitive. 2 wins by Aus sides in NZ already definitely helps people justify the spend to go to the footy.

Nah... Tahs copping it for poor crowds is deservedly so....

Regardless of the number of teams, NSW statistically has more rugby players and rugby fans than any other state in Australia and poor crowds at Waratah matches are a reflection of poor engagement between those fans and the Waratahs themselves, which is a symptom of something really wrong.

RA engagement and investment in NSW is more then any other state so if there only producing some of the shit crowds that they have in the past 3-4 years, then they deserve every ounce of that criticism.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Don't disagree and not saying NSW are killing it but groups like the Force should just worry about building their crowds and not always just pointing over there with a nothing to see here attitude about their numbers at 29% capacity...

 

[Yoda]

Don't disagree and not saying NSW are killing it but groups like the Force should just worry about building their crowds and not always just pointing over there with a nothing to see here attitude about their numbers at 29% capacity...

Perth has a huge majority of AFL support. Winning by the Force is the best strategy. Also not scheduling games in the heat of the day and at the same time as an AFL game would help. If the Swans are playing a big game at the SCG it’s rarely scheduled at the same time as a home Waratah game.

 

[Tomthumb]

Perth has a huge majority of AFL support. Winning by the Force is the best strategy. Also not scheduling games in the heat of the day and at the same time as an AFL game would help. If the Swans are playing a big game at the SCG it’s rarely scheduled at the same time as a home Waratah game.

Scheduling will always be hard with Perth being in such a different timezone. Have the game later and you severely impact viewing figures as it becomes a 10pm game on the east coast and a midnight start in NZ

 

[Braveheart81]

I think people just need to be realistic. Super Rugby isn't going to suddenly go from abysmal crowds to capacity crowds after a couple of wins.

The Force game drew more people than their home game against Moana and significantly more than the same fixture last year against the Drua. Realistically the Force would need larger crowds to be sustainable without additional Twiggy funding but likewise, I don't think you can look at the 6k people that attended the Drua game on the weekend and argue that if only the scheduling was different a lot more people would have turned up. Every bit of available data suggests that wouldn't be the case.

In terms of the Tahs, the 20k crowd against the Brumbies was the best in a long time. Sure, more people should attend rugby matches in Sydney but you're only ever going to get incremental increases based on the games being good and the team playing well.

As with many things, it takes a lot longer to bring the fans back than it takes to lose them.

 

[Braveheart81]

If the Swans are playing a big game at the SCG it’s rarely scheduled at the same time as a home Waratah game.

The stadiums are also right next to each other. As much as it is possible, there's rarely fixtures at the SCG and SFS concurrently.

HBF Park and Optus Stadium are on different sides of the city. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that there will only ever be one event in town at any time and if there is, Super Rugby will adjust their schedule. For what benefit? I don't think it does anything noticeable to the crowd numbers.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Rugby in Aus should really have a look at what the NBL has done over 10+ years and gone from really struggling to seemingly thriving at the moment with an average crowd across the season of 7k but thats brought down by NZ taking some games to smaller regional arenas.

Perth Wildcats average attendance of 11k, Ade 10k, Syd 10k and it's got to cost a lot less to run a bball team than a Rugby team. Larry Kestleman has done a hell of a job.

 

[Braveheart81]

Perth Wildcats average attendance of 11k, Ade 10k, Syd 10k and it's got to cost a lot less to run a bball team than a Rugby team. Larry Kestleman has done a hell of a job.

The Sydney Kings being good has been critically important for this. Throughout the history of the NBL the fortunes of the league tend to live and die on whether the Kings are successful. The Wildcats are generally always good and popular but that doesn't move the needle in the rest of the country.

It was certainly a great deal by Kestleman buying the whole league when they were bankrupt and then reaping the rewards as it has rebounded. Being able to create new teams that he owns and then sells has also been a massive financial boon for him. It's a very unusual ownership structure though where a guy who owns teams also owns the league.

As basketball has grown globally it has also paid big dividends for the NBL. The quality of player available at their salary price point gets better and better and then combine that with the NBA Next Stars program where you are getting future top 5 NBA draft picks coming to play a year in the NBL is huge.

On a tangent, I think it's very interesting from a team building perspective given their salary cap and the players available to recruit. In terms of international players there's an almost endless pool of players available which makes it far more complex recruiting the right players to build a winning team versus leagues that are at the top of the pile where you do have access to the best players but there's only a very limited number of them.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Worth pointing out that the Super rugby draw is announced way before the NRL and AFL put out theirs.

If there is a clash, it isn't because the rugby admins haven't done their job

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

I just find the NBL a really interesting case study of a sport that has a big international presence in terms of players and audience. Australia is in the top bracket of sides with genuine top line talent but the national league was struggling to stay alive and relevant. I can see some familiar lines to Rugby.

 

[Braveheart81]

I just find the NBL a really interesting case study of a sport that has a big international presence in terms of players and audience. Australia is in the top bracket of sides with genuine top line talent but the national league was struggling to stay alive and relevant. I can see some familiar lines to Rugby.

There's a huge connection with the widespread popularity of the NBA. Lots of people follow the NBA and engaging with the NBL is the best option they have in terms of seeing the sport live.

I think there's a solid connection between the NBA losing interest in Australia post Michael Jordan and then that interest being rekindled a little while later with Kobe, LeBron, Steph etc.

 

[chiraag]

HBF Park and Optus Stadium are on different sides of the city. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that there will only ever be one event in town at any time and if there is, Super Rugby will adjust their schedule. For what benefit? I don't think it does anything noticeable to the crowd numbers.

They're actually pretty close to each other (less than 2km). On opposite sides of the river, but they're adjacent stops on the same train line.

I think we could've expected a crowd of around 8K without the heat and AFL at the same time. I know I left my kids at home given the heat, and am sure a lot of others likely did the same. But do agree with you that crowds aren't going to suddenly turn around and we do need to be realistic.

 

[Braveheart81]

They're actually pretty close to each other (less than 2km). On opposite sides of the river, but they're adjacent stops on the same train line.

I think we could've expected a crowd of around 8K without the heat and AFL at the same time. I know I left my kids at home given the heat, and am sure a lot of others likely did the same. But do agree with you that crowds aren't going to suddenly turn around and we do need to be realistic.

Woops. I'm not sure where my original google maps search showed instead of HBF Park. It definitely had the location being closer to the coast (and further away from Optus Stadium).

Is expecting 8k reasonable? Based on the Aus Stadiums page it has been years since the Force have cracked a crowd of 8k.

 

[D-Box]

Woops. I'm not sure where my original google maps search showed instead of HBF Park. It definitely had the location being closer to the coast (and further away from Optus Stadium).

Is expecting 8k reasonable? Based on the Aus Stadiums page it has been years since the Force have cracked a crowd of 8k.

Probably because last year we had

HBF Park (Force Home Field) - Mt Lawley
HBF Stadium - Mt Clearmont
HBF Arena - Joondalup

I know of people going to the wrong one. At least this year the Stadium and Arena have changed names

 

[Tazzmania]

Aus Stadiums keeps selective data each year for super rugby, however comparing the three matches so far this year for the Force to the same corresponding fixtures last year:

Force V Moana 5,328 (PY 5,480) -2.77%
Force v Reds 7,377 (PY 5,462) +35.06%
Force v Drua 6,011 (PY 4,882) + 23.13%

Total : 18,716 (PY 15,824) +18.28%

Interestingly over both years matches all played February / March.

Not great figures but at least trending in the right direction.

 

[Mr Pilfer]

Aus Stadiums keeps selective data each year for super rugby, however comparing the three matches so far this year for the Force to the same corresponding fixtures last year:

Force V Moana 5,328 (PY 5,480) -2.77%
Force v Reds 7,377 (PY 5,462) +35.06%
Force v Drua 6,011 (PY 4,882) + 23.13%

Total : 18,716 (PY 15,824) +18.28%

Interestingly over both years matches all played February / March.

Not great figures but at least trending in the right direction.

The force do traditionally seem to draw bigger crowds vs the kiwi teams due to the number of kiwis living here whereas the other Aussie teams draw bigger crowds for their derby rivalries.

If the Force had a home again against the crusaders kicking off at 7pm on a Friday or Saturday night for example I think we would go close to 8k (especially with both teams in top 6).

Force have home games coming up against highlanders and hurricanes but again early kick offs and clashing with club rugby