England v Australia, Saturday 3 December

[amirite]

Mumm was selected over Timani for lineout ability. Cheika said that very clearly in his presser.

I think what's he's saying is that in his opinion Chieks was lying.

It's not Occam's razor, but it isn't ridiculous either.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I agree re: interwebs numbers, but he's still in the ballpark.

Has a Wallaby scrum gone backwards with Fardy at lock? I can only remember him playing there through injury/card issues, so that can be put down to a systems failure.

The Brumbies scrum always went well with him there.

Fardy has ended up at lock in at least 3 games in gold (for whatever reason) - against Arg, Eng and NZ, IIRC.

I don't think he has been part of a single scrum at lock which has won the ball out of at least a half dozen attempts - they have been spectacularly bad.

 

[Twoilms]

The Pooper stays. Previously, we had a great 6 (in-form Fardy) but no viable 8. Now we have a viable 8 but no 6. There aren't a great deal of backrowers putting pressure on the Pooper besides McMahon, and he's a 7 anyway.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Stats don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of it. For what it's worth

Dean Mumm
minutes 195
11 carries
43m made
22 tackles
1 miss
1 turnover conceded
1 yellow card
9 lineout catches
1 lineout steal

Lopeti Timani
minutes 196
29 carries
49m made
21 tackles
1 miss
2 turnovers conceded
1 lineout catch

 

[Twoilms]

Stats don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of it. For what it's worth

Lopeti Timani
29 carries
49m made

Geez, that's average for a 'ball carrying 8'.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Other backrow options - obviously doesn't include any ruck or turnover forced stats which might make all the difference

Scott Fardy
minutes 120
4 carries
9m made
19 tackles
3 miss
6 lineout catch

David Pocock
minutes 305
30 carries
43m made
54 tackles
6 miss
4 turnovers conceded
0 lineout catch

Michael Hooper
minutes 320
33 carries
137m made
41 tackles
12 miss
3 turnovers conceded
6 lineout catch

 

[amirite]

Fardy has ended up at lock in at least 3 games in gold (for whatever reason) - against Arg, Eng and NZ, IIRC.

I don't think he has been part of a single scrum at lock which has won the ball out of at least a half dozen attempts - they have been spectacularly bad.

But that's what I'm saying, it's likely a systems failure.

It's not like that practised with him there and he was familiar with the timing, footwork, binding, and cues.

 

[PeterK]

Risk is too high. You can't have no lineout caller in a match. If simmo copped an injury that'd be the game.

This is why Coleman is so damn great. He's learning to call lineouts and he can pull his own weight elsewhere. He's not a burden.

Agree with Coleman.

However I would have Fardy in the team and he has called lineouts.

I believe Arnold is injured so it is a moot point. Mumm ahead of skelton is a good call.

 

[PeterK]

Mumm was selected over Timani for lineout ability. Cheika said that very clearly in his presser.

so it was still the wrong call.

Breakdown not lineout is what hurt.

Fardy at 6 Pocock at 7 and Timani at 8 would have been far better against ireland than

Mumm, Hooper, Pocock

 

[Dan54]

FWIW I reckon 95% of kiwis will be going for you blokes on Sunday morning 'cos (a) we can't stand England, (b) we sorta kinda like you guys but don't like to admit it, and mostly (c) we don't want the poms taking "our" record off us when we've only just set it.

Wallabies by a Foley DG well into extra time

Actually WOB, I try not to tell anyone that probably most kiwis will be behind the Wallabies, my mates all know that I support Wallabies against most other teams, but are polite enough not to rub my face in it, and even back in NZ my daughter always laughs that most of her and most of her mates do same thing. And funnily enough a hell of a lot want the Poms to lose anytime they play.....go figure huh?

 

[PeterK]

This is the perplexing question to me, both are 80 minute players, so you won't need to\want to budget for their replacement.

So playing the other on the bench just delays the "Pooper" to later in the match as they will replace one of the other backrowers, not the starting "Pooper".

So you are essentially just delaying the "Pooper"; and I don't see Fardy or Mumm contributing any better than having the "Pooper" starting in the first place.

It is called a balanced backrow. Hooper could replace Pocock depending how the game is going.

Hooper would have more impact later in the game as they get tired.
Hooper had zero impact against ireland in the first half.
During the first half both Timani and Fardy would have been more useful than Hooper i.e contributing better.

 

[MonkeyBoy]

This is the perplexing question to me, both are 80 minute players, so you won't need to\want to budget for their replacement.

So playing the other on the bench just delays the "Pooper" to later in the match as they will replace one of the other backrowers, not the starting "Pooper".

So you are essentially just delaying the "Pooper"; and I don't see Fardy or Mumm contributing any better than having the "Pooper" starting in the first place.

delaying the Pooper will only lead to constipation

 

[PeterK]

Stats don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of it. For what it's worth

Dean Mumm
minutes 195
11 carries
43m made
22 tackles
1 miss
1 turnover conceded
1 yellow card
9 lineout catches
1 lineout steal

Lopeti Timani
minutes 196
29 carries
49m made
21 tackles
1 miss
2 turnovers conceded
1 lineout catch

Most of mumm's run metres are out wide, Timani's are all in tight getting front foot ball.

Also doesn't measure dominance or physicality of tackles.

Since mobility and speed is Mumm's greatest asset after his lineout , these stats show the only value Mumm adds is in the lineout.

At the ruck timani clears bodies mumm falls off them.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Arnold? Wow, thats tough.

Why
He was pretty average to poor last game

 

[Braveheart81]

Against Scotland Timani competed at 3 defensive rucks and 6 against Wales.

Are you really saying that he would have made all the difference in the first half against Ireland at the breakdown?

I think he would have had minimal defensive ruck involvement because we were on the back foot constantly, scrambling to defend and the only player we were at all willing to commit to defensive rucks was Pocock who had very limited success because there were few good opportunities to compete for the reasons already stated.

I don't think team selections in the backrow would have had any real impact in that first half against Ireland because we were comprehensively beaten across the park.

Surely Timani's ruck cleanouts have and will always be most beneficial when we have the ball which is not the situation in that first half against Ireland.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Man, you can see why Cheika has dropped the finishers rhetoric. That is one piss-weak bench. Robertson, Latu and Frisby should be no where near that team. They all have potential to be decent but damn man they are not high impact players to be bringing on at the ass end of a tight test. No Taf, Beale or To'omua etc. Bout the only player of that lot i'd back to have impact is McMahon but by all accounts hes half crocked.

Plenty say he doesn't use the bench effectively anyway

 

[wamberal]

Plenty say he doesn't use the bench effectively anyway

Plenty say lots of things. Doesn't mean what they say is right, though.

 

[KOB1987]

Mumm was selected over Timani for lineout ability. Cheika said that very clearly in his presser.

Right you are. However it could just be another way of saying Timani needed a rest. I think the fact that he was one of the 7 players to sit out the France test implied that the intention was to start him v Ireland. He may have been carrying a niggle at that point too, it would be interesting to go back to the Scotland game and see the circumstances he left the field.

"Timani has done absolutely nothing wrong," Cheika said. "We want to focus a little bit more on our lineout this week and the threat that Ireland might pose there – they're very good in that area. Dean brings a lot of experience and quality in that area.
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"But then we'll probably lose a bit of Lopeti's ball carrying too. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other but we decided that was probably an important thing for this game and that's how we'll run."​

 

[Scrubber2050]

Plenty say lots of things. Doesn't mean what they say is right, though.

So do YOU think he uses his bench well ?

 

[Braveheart81]

The minutes received by bench players during Cheika's coaching tenure seem to correlate pretty well to the quality of the bench.

At the RWC we had a far stronger bench and they got substantially more game time as a result.