Sydney Subbies 2025

[Pfitzy]

Subbies tried some out of the box ideas last year at any point in history to keep teams in the division and this forum tore it apart.

Fixed

 

[parkfootyenthusiast2]

Being frustrated that clubs aren't as strong as they used to be is one thing, blaming the Subbies board for it is a whole other level of unhinged.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

It's a Rugby wide problem not just Subbies. Something wrong with the thing I like and effects ME. It must be someone else fault. Fix it for ME.

Subbies Clubs struggling = Boards fault
Junior Clubs struggling = Darn private schools
Western Force stink = Waratahs fault somehow
Wallabies suck = Evil Sydney Eastern Suburbs types

 

[parkfootyenthusiast2]

You're in real strife if you're a privately educated Waratahs fan on the Subbies board living in the Eastern suburbs...

 

[Pfitzy]

So this is what you get an ever growing gap between the top end of town and the rest. As more clubs falter like Pats the harder it will be. But let’s keep pretending the current system works

For me it is partly to do with the way the competition is structured - or at least the way in which it has been structured traditionally.

I've been on the Board and I've seen the juggling act up close. The news, views, rumours, and half-truths that somehow have to get slapped into viable competitions by somewhere between February and May. Then injury tolls, absences, breakdowns in communication.... none of it makes for easy reading when you're trying to decide whether a club should go up or down. Or even if they're treading water or about to implode.

In certain cases like Lindfield and then Newport, the push for First Division was undeniable. So who makes room at that point?
Do we just keep pushing up successful clubs until we have a First Division made up of ~14 clubs and then a cliff-edge to the rest of Subbies?

That is a sure fire way to create a three tiered system in senior rugby:

1) Premier Rugby
2) Big Subbies Clubs
3) Everyone else stumbling around a wasteland of what's left, waiting for the axe to fall either through lack of players but more likely through lack of volunteers.

 

[Pfitzy]

It's a Rugby wide problem not just Subbies. Something wrong with the thing I like and effects ME. It must be someone else fault. Fix it for ME.

Subbies Clubs struggling = Boards fault
Junior Clubs struggling = Darn private schools
Western Force stink = Waratahs fault somehow
Wallabies suck = Evil Sydney Eastern Suburbs types

Don't forget - crucially - that refs are also seriously struggling for numbers.

 

[parkfootyenthusiast2]

Side note, was out at Blacktown on the weekend, think I've managed to identify the root cause of their issue. Their captain is the biggest loudmouth on their whole team, sets a really poor example for his chargers. Was heard calling the opposing team every slur under the sun for opting to scrum 5 out instead of taking a quick tap early in the game, and then never let up from there. 80 minutes of straight dribble out of his mouth.

If your captain is the first to lose his head when a decision doesn't go your way, I don't know how you can expect the rest of the team to remain calm. Plenty of candidates that could have the gig instead, their hooker, fly half and tall second rower were all excellent.

For comparison, Merrylands last year had a similar play style... big units who love a back fence run and love to put shots on. Their captain was levelheaded, kept them in line and spoke to the ref with genuine respect, and they had next to no issues as a side. Just some food for thought.

For what it's worth, their Ladies Day was great, their new kit for the week was fantastic and their post-game sportsmanship was great. Really enjoyed their (presumably Fijian?) post-game hymn they sang together also. Plenty of upside for them and I hope they continue to grow and develop for the sake of the game and the people involved in the administration of the club.

 

[Here To Do]

That is a sure fire way to create a three tiered system in senior rugby:

1) Premier Rugby
2) Big Subbies Clubs
3) Everyone else stumbling around a wasteland of what's left, waiting for the axe to fall either through lack of players but more likely through lack of volunteers.

Are we already not there, though, and is that a bad thing?

Premier/Shute/SRU serves an important purpose - it is the top level of club rugby and was traditionally, and will be again next season apparently, the top level of club rugby you could watch on FTA. Essentially, they fly the flag for the game below Super and Test level.

The big Subbies clubs are the next level - traditionally, many of these clubs would be lower division SRU clubs aiming to break into Shute competition but now serve as the "elite" amateur clubs below the semi-pro Premier clubs. For those who want strong competition without competing for pro contracts - just good, tough rugby.

Then we have the lower Div clubs - one for the weekend warriors who just want a game locally. Rugby for the sake of rugby without the cut-throat nature of the top divisions.

Now, where are the problems with this system? At the moment, the glass ceiling between SRU and Subbies means there are clubs who have bigger aspirations that are trapped in a system where they cannot operate as an elite club. Think your Drummoynes who want to operate at a level above amateur community rugby. Then you have the other, traditionally "Subbies" clubs who want top level competition but are more than comfortable operating as a community club.

This pushes down the line as well, with blurred lines between Div One and Div Two clubs like Petersham, Forest and Newport who teeter between the two and haven't been able to establish themselves like the Colleagues and Mosmans of the union. As you go further down, the gulfs continue to grow and you end up with logjams along divisional lines.

Subbies and the SRU have fundamentally not significantly changed in scope in the last 4 decades as far as I can tell - amateur policies and player points policies, of course, but Shute operates in a form of purgatory where it's a Sydney comp, then a NSW comp, and back again. Subbies gets the rejects from the SRU, like Penrith, Drummoyne, Hornsby, UNSW, etc.

We need better alignment between all levels of rugby - things like the Tooheys New Cup and the ARC/NRC were supposed to help with this but had their deficiencies and have gone by the wayside. If the SRU can't get it done then what chance do we have?

IMO there needs to be a strong and thorough look of what Subbies competition will be into the future - if the aim is to become a social union, then you risk alienating the top clubs, but if you aim to be a fully competitive system, you will lose the lower end of town. The solution, in my view, is there needs to be either a middle ground or a split system to accommodate that.

A two-tier Subbies system, with a "Premiership" tier and a "Championship" tier, split into sub-divisions based on performance, is where I'd be looking. The logical split is along the lines of clubs with and without Colts but this doesn't fundamentally solve the current issues we have. Things like scheduling and divisional structures could be more rigid in the "Premiership" where competition is king but more relaxed in the "Championship" where just getting games on the park is focus. Teams can nominate which tier they would like to be considered for and, along with performance, facilities, numbers, etc. could be graded into one of those tiers.

What does this achieve? It means that clubs within tiers and divisions are closer in culture and aspiration to each other. You can tailor the more relaxed competitions to have less stringent schedules, less teams in a competition to ease travel while building inter-club connections. At the top end, you have the same alignment of "we want to compete with you" where you can really test which clubs are the best, without some of the mismatches we see where a highly ambitious club ends up getting mauled by the incumbent strong clubs.

 

[Pfitzy]

You make some good points, particularly the opening line:

Are we already not there, though, and is that a bad thing?

We probably are there. Is it a bad thing? It depends what rugby wants to be.

I don't think the Premier model of 4 + 3 is sustainable, and we're already seeing that with certain clubs unable to field a full complement. They probably need to look at a 3+2 model with their Colts sides being codified into U20 and U19 respectively.

Maybe we just accept that there are 14 clubs in Subbies who can turn out 3 Grades + Womens + U21 Colts and make that competition what it is - 8-14 clubs who can meet the criteria.

I look at the resources required to even add Colts to my existing 2 Grades and am left to think that 2nd Division is basically another universe.

In lower levels it might be clubs are limited to 2 Grades + U21 (and maybe even also an U19 if they can manage it) like parts of the UK system, which helps keep continuity between juniors and seniors for those with the fortune of an aligned junior club. Promotion and relegation in this tier and consideration given to those with Womens rugby in order to make it desirable.

The elephant in the room of course is schools. So valued a part of the landscape by many, yet disruptive to continuity in a way league haven't countenanced (but may, soon)

 

[Prodigy]

Grand Final Predictions for First Grade

KENTWELL: Hunters Hill vs Waverley
BARRACLOUGH: UNSW vs Petersham
CLARK: Hills vs Beecroft
JEFFERY: Wakehurst vs Kings
MCLEAN: Hawkesbury Valley vs Harlequins
MELDRUM: Manly Savers vs Merrylands

 

[Here To Do]

Grand Final Predictions for First Grade

BARRACLOUGH: UNSW vs Petersham

I'm not so sure about this to be honest - the Finals system could really bite those 2 in the backside if any of the lower teams come into form in the next few weeks. If you know you only need to win 2 games to win a premiership, all bets are off. If both clubs stay ahead, they will know they have targets on their back.

 

[Pfitzy]

MCLEAN: Hawkesbury Valley vs Harlequins

Going to be quite a good pair of clashes in semifinal week with Harlequins starting to really hit their stride.

The victory over Redfield has an asterisk next to it IMHO but it was a pretty good win by Quins.

We won't learn much about Redfield in terms of form this weekend, as Canterbury should be a fairly easy win at the College.

Round 13 at McQuade will be the litmus test for both Valley and Redfield to see how they stack up and ultimately who takes the minor premiership.

Don't think anyone will trouble a top 4 of Redfield, Valley, Raptors and Quins - maybe in that order.

 

[Pfitzy]

Grose Cup - Redfield probably take the minor premiership ahead of Canterbury, whose only enemy is themselves.

Quins and Raptors probably make up the other spots with I suspect a gap back to Valley and Convicts, but the top 2 are likely to fight it out in a true clash of styles.

 

[footy_footy]

I'm not so sure about this to be honest - the Finals system could really bite those 2 in the backside if any of the lower teams come into form in the next few weeks. If you know you only need to win 2 games to win a premiership, all bets are off. If both clubs stay ahead, they will know they have targets on their back.

Agreed, the 1 v 4 & 2 v 3 setup is high stakes and really gives 2nd place no great benefit.
Would hate to face Briars in a knockout semi. They found form late last season and looks like they could do it again. Forest & Irish battling for 4th but won’t fire a shot.

So for Uni and Petersham, finishing 1st is crucial! Briars hosting UNSW this week will be a pearler.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Time for the important stuff! Let’s give the people what they want.
Are we going to see a finals series this year in the Halligans Cup? We have 4 teams out in front and playing regularly this year.
Colleagues have had this competition in the bag since 2017 with one slip up to the Lindfield juggernaut in 2023. But in there 1 match up this year Kings have knocked them off.
Let’s get this competition where it belongs under lights on a Friday night highlighting the superstars of our game

 

[Here To Do]

Time for the important stuff! Let’s give the people what they want.
Are we going to see a finals series this year in the Halligans Cup? We have 4 teams out in front and playing regularly this year.
Colleagues have had this competition in the bag since 2017 with one slip up to the Lindfield juggernaut in 2023. But in there 1 match up this year Kings have knocked them off.
Let’s get this competition where it belongs under lights on a Friday night highlighting the superstars of our game

Halligan Cup GF: Colleagues VI v Kings II
Halligan Plate GF: LCOI III v Hills III
Halligan Bowl GF: Mosman VI v Convicts II

Triple header for sure

 

[Footyhead67]

Halligan Cup GF: Colleagues VI v Kings II
Halligan Plate GF: LCOI III v Hills III
Halligan Bowl GF: Mosman VI v Convicts II

Triple header for sure

I was thinking 1v4 and 2v3 and then a GF. But I’m all for this as Mosman and Convicts have also played a lot of games but haven’t had the success of the other 4.
Also presents opportunity for a great match up. LCOI beat Hills 22-21 last weekend so should be a cracker.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Why not the following. Friday nights under lights.
Week 1.
Mjr Semi- 1 v 2
Mnr Semi- 3 v 4

Week 2
PF- Looser of Mjr v Winner of Mnr
Bowl GF- Mosman v Convicts

Week 3
Plate GF- Looser of PF vs Looser of Mnr
Halligans cup GF- Winner Mjr vs Winner PF

Probably don’t need the extra games in week 2 and 3 but nice to have a couple of games each week in the lead up to the other Finals

 

[Footyhead67]

Keeping the games running for these clubs with players available when their regular teams are playing finals is a no brainer.

Should happen every year!!

I heard someone mentioned it in the Halligan group chat.

 

[parkfootyenthusiast2]

Get em playing for the Halligan Slab, the Halligan Fifth and the Halligan 10-pack, I'm sure that would appease the masses.