Selection politics and bias, Gold Squads unfairness etc.

[no9]

What has happened No 9? I always thought that you gave a slightly cynical, but objective view. Did the mum from Waverley, who's face doesn't move, run over your terrier?
Sorry mate. But all jokes aside, that a truckload of kids can play the game, but are they in the right area? Whits and the other lads don't make the trip to Castle Hill, let alone Raby. If Oakhill, Kings, Barker, Newington or Trinity offer the boys an opportunity for their sporting prowess to shine. Live with it.

I'm fully aware that they don't get past North Parramatta (again, why have the?) and I have no problem with the arms race that some within the GPS and CAS are currently engaged in. Cannabilisation may eventually bring change, one way or another. I actually like the irony of some banker or insurance executives offspring getting the heave ho for the boy from the outer burbs in year 10. It would be appreciated if you left Oakhill off that little list of rugby scholarship lepers colony as I can assure you that those boys have all been together since yr 7.

*Don't know about Mrs Waverley but Mrs "C'arn ACT" scared the hell out of my bull mastiff the other day.

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... ... ... It would be appreciated if you left Oakhill off that little list of rugby scholarship lepers colony as I can assure you that those boys have all been together since yr 7 ... ... ... ... ... ...

No9,

Once upon a time when Oakhill was 'Oakhill De La Salle' we down in St John's Lakemba De La Salle used to consider them the rich privileged cousin in the family.

Sorry for my digression!

 

[Man on the hill]

Go back and read post No99 as it relates to your "understanding" of the selection procedure.

#99 is your cynical assertion

 

[whatever]

Newbie,
I know you have a soft spot for those young fellows who dabble in the dark code and good luck to them I say. Where we may not agree is whether pursuing these players beyond the age of 16 is a worthy investment. In my time I have yet to see a young player turn his back on league in favour of rugby when being courted by the devils courtesans. But I digress.

My problem is not with Sutherland or Whitaker themselves. I just don't believe that we need high performance/elite player managers/squads at the age bracket they target. The power and influence they possess is also well beyond a healthy level of transparency. Now if they were to start this process at 19-20 I could see some value to it.

-----------------------------------------------

Yeh, Yeh, Yeh we're professional now I know. Now JON wants me to fork out $180 a head (thats $900 for my family) to watch those from accross the ditch hand us our arses, or to pay at all for watching the Horrortahs play. Why do we need to pay people like Sutherland and his crew hundreds of thousands in salaries to do what a 41 yr old broken down Samoan prop does for free at Southern Districts colts. Credible observations like Tomasi's also show how ridiculous at times the schools selection system can be. Open up the game to all comers, double the rep sides and tournaments if necessary and wait for some maturity before deciding which players to sink the dollars into. By then those who didn't cut it in League land will be back again to have another go or getting 5 shades of shit punched out of them in the local A grade comp. Will it stop GPS getting 99 selections to 1 from CCC, probably not, but it might end the reality that if you haven't made one of the sides selected tomorrow then your pathway just went over a cliff and that rugby up to the age of 18 is owned and administerd by and for the elite.

No9; I seemingly agree with a lot of what you say, but you lose me in your detailed comments.

You seem to indicate that you don't believe in pursuing the dual coders after the age of 16 (I probably agree - that's why I believe politics needs to taken out of the U16s selection process); they are lost to league after that age (as the league pathway is a clearer road - Harold Matts - SG Ball - NYC).

You then talk about some elite squad for 19-20 year olds but wouldn't this be same crew who repped so successfully at the latest U20s world champ.

You then talk about opening up the game to all comers but don't say how.

I agree with your comments about the elitist private school comps imploding in on themselves as they cannibalise district comps and the number of competitive teams within these comps continually being reduced. Let's face it: it is only school boy footy, play it on Thursday sports afternoon like everyone else (whether there is 100 years of traditional or not, sorry dudes but the senior game is now professional - changes are required), allowing players to play club footy on weekends.

 

[whatever]

No9,

Once upon a time when Oakhill was 'Oakhill De La Salle' we down in St John's Lakemba De La Salle used to consider them the rich privileged cousin in the family.

Sorry for my digression!

Newbie, I did not pick up you were Lebanese. Sorry, maybe I should withdraw this comment.

 

[Newbie]

Newbie, I did not pick up you were Lebanese. Sorry, maybe I should withdraw this comment.

I was part of the 5% minority that wasn't Maronite. i believe it is still the same with respect to ethnicity, though the name has changed I think.

 

[CTPE]

Thought this might stir the pot a bit and confirm that the cream will always rise to the top - regardless of school connection - Below is the Wallabies side for the last test against Wales - the origin of some players may surprise a few people:


Starting Side:


15-Adam Ashley-Cooper,( Berkeley Vale High School, NSW)
14-Cooper Vuna,(HS in NZ)
13-Rob Horne,(Georges River College, NSW)
12-Pat McCabe (St Aloysius, NSW),
11-Digby Ioane, (St Josephs, Gregory Terrace, QLD)
10-Berrick Barnes (Ipswich Grammar, QLD),
9-Will Genia;(Brisbane Boys College, QLD)
8-Wycliff Palu,(Balgowlah Boys High, NSW)
7-David Pocock (captain),(Churchie, Brisbane, QLD)
6-Scott Higginbotham,(The Southport School, QLDl)
5-Nathan Sharpe,(The Southport School, QLD)
4-Rob Simmons,(The Southport School, QLD)
3-Sekope Kepu,(Wesley College, NZ)
2-Tatafu Polota-Nau, (Granville South HS, NSW)
1-Benn Robinson.(The Kings School, NSW)
Replacements:
16-Stephen Moore,(Brisbane Grammar, QLD)
17-Ben Alexander, (Knox Grammar, NSW)
18-Dave Dennis,(Richmond HS, NSW)
19-Michael Hooper,(St Pius X, NSW)
20-Nic White,(St Gregorys College, NSW)
21-Anthony Fainga'a (St Edmunds College, ACT),
22-Mike Harris.(Westlake Boys HS, NZ)

 

[Hugh Jarse]

And here is something to think about from the Land of the Darkness (reference http://www.allblacks.com/news/18284/Top-Under-17-players-selected-for-camps)

A total of 100 New Zealand schoolboys have been selected as the country’s top Under 17 players. The players will attend one of several regional development camps in July 2012.

The Schools that those players selected by franchise region, for the 2012 camps, are: (I have removed the individual names of the boys because they are not important for the point I wish to make)

Blues region: (17 Schools, 39 boys) 


Sacred Heart College (4);
Mt Albert Grammar School (4);
King’s College (5);
Auckland Grammar School (5);
Kelston Boys’ High School (4);
Otahuhu College (1);
Onehunga High School (1);
Howick College (1);
St Kentigern College (5);
St Peter’s College (2);
Dargaville High School (1);
Whangarei Boys’ High School (1);
Okaihau College (1);
Rosmini College (1);
Takapuna Grammar (1);
Westlake Boys’ High School (1);
Massey High School (1).



Chiefs region: 
(7 Schools, 14 Boys)

Wesley College (3);
St Paul’s Collegiate (1);
Tauranga Boys’ College (1);
Hamilton Boys’ High School (4);
Cambridge High School (1);
Rotorua Boys’ High School (3);
Tokoroa High School (1).



Hurricanes region:

(14 Schools, 25 Boys)
Feilding High School (1);
Hato Paora College (2);
Francis Douglas Memorial College (2);
Stratford High School (1);
Lindisfarne College (2);
Napier Boys’ High School (4);
Wanganui High School (2);
Wairarapa College (1);
St Bernard’s College (2);
Wellington College (4);
Hutt International Boys’ School (1);
Naenae College (1);
Paraparaumu College (1);
Otaki College (1).



Crusaders/Highlanders region:
(13 Schools, 22 boys)

St Thomas of Canterbury College (1);
Christchurch Boys’ High School (3);
St Bede’s College (1);
St Andrew’s College (1);
Christ’s College (1);
Shirley Boys’ High School (1);
Marlborough Boys’ College (1);
Nelson College (3);
Otago Boys’ High School (4);
South Otago High School (1);
Southland Boys’ High School (3);
St Peter’s College, Gore (1);
Menzies College (1).

Anyone think that the top 100 Australian Under 17 players could come from 51 different Schools?

 

[no9]

No9; I seemingly agree with a lot of what you say, but you lose me in your detailed comments.

You seem to indicate that you don't believe in pursuing the dual coders after the age of 16 (I probably agree - that's why I believe politics needs to taken out of the U16s selection process); they are lost to league after that age (as the league pathway is a clearer road - Harold Matts - SG Ball - NYC).

You then talk about some elite squad for 19-20 year olds but wouldn't this be same crew who repped so successfully at the latest U20s world champ.

You then talk about opening up the game to all comers but don't say how.

I agree with your comments about the elitist private school comps imploding in on themselves as they cannibalise district comps and the number of competitive teams within these comps continually being reduced. Let's face it: it is only school boy footy, play it on Thursday sports afternoon like everyone else (whether there is 100 years of traditional or not, sorry dudes but the senior game is now professional - changes are required), allowing players to play club footy on weekends.

Perhaps I'm a lone voice here but I have very little faith in any current level of administration within this game. Self interest and secrecy appear to be the main concern of many who run the game. I have seen many hurdles put in front of kids playing the game due to self interest and importance.More tournaments, more teams, more opportunity, more transparency. If NZ can find 100 top players maybe we need to identify 300 considering the games current status in this country. If there are 5 provinces from which 90% of the playing talent originates out of 2 then why wouldn't the other provinces set up a system to pick up the talent that NSW in particular fails to recognise? Finance I hear you say, Yep. If the game is going to grow the ARU is going to have to jettison some of the suits and salaries for an investment in player depth, but please not squads of underdeveloped 15 yr olds.

In regard to our failed U20 campaign I believe the ARU pathway is part of the problem. The ARU website proudly announced that every player selected had been an Australian schools or A squad representative. What does that say to every 15 to 18 year old out there with dreams of playing for the Wallabies? If you don't make one of these teams by the time you leave school then your chances of being a Wallaby is about 1,0000000000000 to 1. Statistically if you don't attend a GPS school or are in a JGS/NTS/GLEE squad your chances drop to about 1 in 1,000000000000000000000000000000000 because you aren't likely to be selected in either team.

Now look at how you get selected. To be eligible to coach or select in the schools set up you must be employed within the education department. That somewhat limits the talent pool. How many have been tested beyond schools level where the competion is a little bit more ferocious. Tomasi's observations on another thread about the technical limitations of a state I's level prop asks the question of what were they looking at if he can pick the problem out in a short time. There is a saying that it is harder to get out of the Australian cricket team than to get in and I see elements of this at times with junior selections. I'm not saying that every kid picked can't play, simply that so much can change in what are the development years. It's why I think we place too much emphasis on 15 and 16 year olds when in 5 years they may not even be playing the game or burnt out. Consequently many kids don't fully develop until leaving school. League is brutal in dealing with those who don't continue to develop but are happy to spend a few dollars along the way on the off chance that you are the next B. Marshall at 16. If it turns out your'e not Benji by 19 then its see you later. In some cases rugby send them to U20 world championships.

In my opinion not much needs to change. Leave the schools to continue on with the hit and miss and hope that players can enjoy the game for what it is. But define the point that it is what it is, "school rugby". Discontinue with the NTS /JGS as most of the schools deliver an adequate program of player development anyway. Narrow the focus onto the 19-20 yr age bracket (colts) where by then a lot of the questions have been answered.

• Has the player the physicall capacity to succeed
• Has he finished toying with an NRL career
• Is he mentally up to the grind of senior football

Yes clubs will still be falling over themselves making offers to the schools superstars but many of them can't cut it outside the school environment of unfetted adulation. If they can then we haven't lost anything along the way and if they can't we haven't wasted the funding. We also send a clear message to our juniors outside of the elite few that you aren't washed up at the age of 18 and that the dream can still be achieved.

 

[CTPE]

And here is something to think about from the Land of the Darkness (reference http://www.allblacks.com/news/18284/Top-Under-17-players-selected-for-camps)



The Schools that those players selected by franchise region, for the 2012 camps, are: (I have removed the individual names of the boys because they are not important for the point I wish to make)

Blues region: (17 Schools, 39 boys) 


Sacred Heart College (4);
Mt Albert Grammar School (4);
King’s College (5);
Auckland Grammar School (5);
Kelston Boys’ High School (4);
Otahuhu College (1);
Onehunga High School (1);
Howick College (1);
St Kentigern College (5);
St Peter’s College (2);
Dargaville High School (1);
Whangarei Boys’ High School (1);
Okaihau College (1);
Rosmini College (1);
Takapuna Grammar (1);
Westlake Boys’ High School (1);
Massey High School (1).



Chiefs region: 
(7 Schools, 14 Boys)

Wesley College (3);
St Paul’s Collegiate (1);
Tauranga Boys’ College (1);
Hamilton Boys’ High School (4);
Cambridge High School (1);
Rotorua Boys’ High School (3);
Tokoroa High School (1).



Hurricanes region:

(14 Schools, 25 Boys)
Feilding High School (1);
Hato Paora College (2);
Francis Douglas Memorial College (2);
Stratford High School (1);
Lindisfarne College (2);
Napier Boys’ High School (4);
Wanganui High School (2);
Wairarapa College (1);
St Bernard’s College (2);
Wellington College (4);
Hutt International Boys’ School (1);
Naenae College (1);
Paraparaumu College (1);
Otaki College (1).



Crusaders/Highlanders region:
(13 Schools, 22 boys)

St Thomas of Canterbury College (1);
Christchurch Boys’ High School (3);
St Bede’s College (1);
St Andrew’s College (1);
Christ’s College (1);
Shirley Boys’ High School (1);
Marlborough Boys’ College (1);
Nelson College (3);
Otago Boys’ High School (4);
South Otago High School (1);
Southland Boys’ High School (3);
St Peter’s College, Gore (1);
Menzies College (1).

Anyone think that the top 100 Australian Under 17 players could come from 51 different Schools?

I'm surprised that there's only 100 boys chosen given the status of rugby in NZ - it's only 4 teams of 23 plus a couple of shadow players. Must be plenty of pissed off U17 players in NZ at the moment.

 

[CTPE]

Anyone think that the top 100 Australian Under 17 players could come from 51 different Schools?

It's interesting that the 138 players from the 6 Division 1 teams at the Australian Schools Championships (NSW1, NSW2, QLD1, QLD2, CS, ACT, VIC & WA) come from 83 different schools.

 

[Man on the hill]

CTPE - thank you, thank you & again - THANK YOU - some much needed sanity. I'm just glad that the majority of correspondents on this site weren't around for the Menzies Reds Under Beds or weren't Americans during the McCarthy investigations.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I'm surprised that there's only 100 boys chosen given the status of rugby in NZ - it's only 4 teams of 23 plus a couple of shadow players. Must be plenty of pissed off U17 players in NZ at the moment.

The article was posted by James Mortimer - on 19/12/2011 on what appears to be the official Darkness website.

Surprising fact is that this particular article on the Official NZRT web site has drawn only 8 comments. This tells me two things, either no one reads the NZRT web site, or there is none of the "we was robbed", "we were dudded", "my school is better", "we are gods chosen few and deserve better", "my son is rugby royalty" etc culture in the Land of Clouds, Rain, Snow and Earthquakes that such an article would generate in Gaggerland.

It's interesting that the 138 players from the 6 Division 1 teams at the Australian Schools Championships (NSW1, NSW2, QLD1, QLD2, CS, ACT, VIC & WA) come from 83 different schools.

According to IRB (and these figures may be inaccurate) in the land of the Darkness there are 40390 male teen age registered rugby players. In the Golden Land which is girt by sea, there are 87162 male teen age registered rugby players.

Thanks CTPE for doing the maths on the numbers of schools represented at Opens. Perception vs reality. Like many I have the perception of a very narrow gene pool available for higher honours. The analysis CTPE has done suggests otherwise.

We have more teen players than the Darkness, we select from a wider range of schools for the Aust School boys. Therefore it is pre-determined that we are gooder. Why then do we always seen to go into the annual test vs the Darkness School kids as the perennial underdogs with victory being seen as a bonus rather than a reflection of the normal state. Given the pure numbers, our boys should therefore be rocking up to those games with an arrogant swagger, expecting victory like the bloody Crusaders of old had.

Somehow I just don't think that we have that feeling in the lead up to the schoolboy tests.

Stop Press:

and for School attending analysis:
.... long list - Detail excluded - click for more detail.....

The "best" 69 Under 16 kids in NSW come from 39 different Schools.

 

[I like to watch]

It's interesting that the 138 players from the 6 Division 1 teams at the Australian Schools Championships (NSW1, NSW2, QLD1, QLD2, CS, ACT, VIC & WA) come from 83 different schools.

That is either very naive or very cynical.
In a perfect world where ACT VIC & WA were equal to NSW & QLD, this statistic might have merit.
But they are not equal.
I would argue that in most positions, NSW and QLD discards would be superior to the selected kids from these smaller states.
List the starters in the NSW & QLD sides, to see if there is an over concentration of certain Schools/asociations.
That would be a much more honest evaluation of the status quo.

 

[CTPE]

That is either very naive or very cynical.
In a perfect world where ACT VIC & WA were equal to NSW & QLD, this statistic might have merit.
But they are not equal.
I would argue that in most positions, NSW and QLD discards would be superior to the selected kids from these smaller states.
List the starters in the NSW & QLD sides, to see if there is an over concentration of certain Schools/asociations.
That would be a much more honest evaluation of the status quo.

We could look at the starters, or just the forwards or just the bench or perhaps only halfbacks or any category you want...but I'll leave you with this - Both NSW and QLD each had 46 players in their two squads - 92 players from 32 different schools.

 

[whatever]

Perhaps I'm a lone voice here but I have very little faith in any current level of administration within this game. Self interest and secrecy appear to be the main concern of many who run the game. I have seen many hurdles put in front of kids playing the game due to self interest and importance.More tournaments, more teams, more opportunity, more transparency. If NZ can find 100 top players maybe we need to identify 300 considering the games current status in this country. If there are 5 provinces from which 90% of the playing talent originates out of 2 then why wouldn't the other provinces set up a system to pick up the talent that NSW in particular fails to recognise? Finance I hear you say, Yep. If the game is going to grow the ARU is going to have to jettison some of the suits and salaries for an investment in player depth, but please not squads of underdeveloped 15 yr olds.

In regard to our failed U20 campaign I believe the ARU pathway is part of the problem. The ARU website proudly announced that every player selected had been an Australian schools or A squad representative. What does that say to every 15 to 18 year old out there with dreams of playing for the Wallabies? If you don't make one of these teams by the time you leave school then your chances of being a Wallaby is about 1,0000000000000 to 1. Statistically if you don't attend a GPS school or are in a JGS/NTS/GLEE squad your chances drop to about 1 in 1,000000000000000000000000000000000 because you aren't likely to be selected in either team.

Now look at how you get selected. To be eligible to coach or select in the schools set up you must be employed within the education department. That somewhat limits the talent pool. How many have been tested beyond schools level where the competion is a little bit more ferocious. Tomasi's observations on another thread about the technical limitations of a state I's level prop asks the question of what were they looking at if he can pick the problem out in a short time. There is a saying that it is harder to get out of the Australian cricket team than to get in and I see elements of this at times with junior selections. I'm not saying that every kid picked can't play, simply that so much can change in what are the development years. It's why I think we place too much emphasis on 15 and 16 year olds when in 5 years they may not even be playing the game or burnt out. Consequently many kids don't fully develop until leaving school. League is brutal in dealing with those who don't continue to develop but are happy to spend a few dollars along the way on the off chance that you are the next B. Marshall at 16. If it turns out your'e not Benji by 19 then its see you later. In some cases rugby send them to U20 world championships.

In my opinion not much needs to change. Leave the schools to continue on with the hit and miss and hope that players can enjoy the game for what it is. But define the point that it is what it is, "school rugby". Discontinue with the NTS /JGS as most of the schools deliver an adequate program of player development anyway. Narrow the focus onto the 19-20 yr age bracket (colts) where by then a lot of the questions have been answered.

• Has the player the physicall capacity to succeed
• Has he finished toying with an NRL career
• Is he mentally up to the grind of senior football

Yes clubs will still be falling over themselves making offers to the schools superstars but many of them can't cut it outside the school environment of unfetted adulation. If they can then we haven't lost anything along the way and if they can't we haven't wasted the funding. We also send a clear message to our juniors outside of the elite few that you aren't washed up at the age of 18 and that the dream can still be achieved.

Just few points or questions:

In the last ten years (since professionalism) how have the colts comps developed, say, in the Shite (sic) shield? Number of teams, players etc?

Just focus on the JGS, how many of the selected participants come from non-traditional rugby schools or background (non GPS, CAS or ISA)? Maybe, this is the point of JGS re: ARU, spread the skill training to a deeper pool of non-traditional background players.

Yes clubs will still be falling over themselves making offers to the schools superstars. What clubs, players?

To be honest, I believe both league and union have the wrong set up. The NYC in league is developing a footballer who cant defend and union still has the same development system (elist private school comps) pre-professionalism (outside of the NGS/JGS). There is a need for a semi-professional open age comps in both codes below the NRL and SuperRugby, to bring on skilled and mature footballers.

 

[I like to watch]

Just focus on the JGS, how many of the selected participants come from non-traditional rugby schools or background (non GPS, CAS or ISA)? Maybe, this is the point of JGS re: ARU, spread the skill training to a deeper pool of non-traditional background players.

To be honest, I believe both league and union have the wrong set up. The NYC in league is developing a footballer who cant defend and union still has the same development system (elist private school comps) pre-professionalism (outside of the NGS/JGS). There is a need for a semi-professional open age comps in both codes below the NRL and SuperRugby, to bring on skilled and mature footballers.

Mate the NGS is 99% GPS/CAS/ISA kids. It is not extending anything, just concentrating on whats always been there.
I'm a big believer that the squad should not be elite, and should be open to anyone keen enough to attend.
The GPS kids especially, are already exposed to excellent coaching and weights regimes, The NGS is little more than duplicating what they are already getting.The resources could be used more effectively.

 

[whatever]

Mate the NGS is 99% GPS/CAS/ISA kids. It is not extending anything, just concentrating on whats always been there.
I'm a big believer that the squad should not be elite, and should be open to anyone keen enough to attend.
The GPS kids especially, are already exposed to excellent coaching and weights regimes, The NGS is little more than duplicating what they are already getting.The resources could be used more effectively.

Yeah agree, that why I said focus on JGS.

 

[dermo]

No9; I seemingly agree with a lot of what you say, but you lose me in your detailed comments.

You seem to indicate that you don't believe in pursuing the dual coders after the age of 16 (I probably agree - that's why I believe politics needs to taken out of the U16s selection process); they are lost to league after that age (as the league pathway is a clearer road - Harold Matts - SG Ball - NYC).

You then talk about some elite squad for 19-20 year olds but wouldn't this be same crew who repped so successfully at the latest U20s world champ.

You then talk about opening up the game to all comers but don't say how.

I agree with your comments about the elitist private school comps imploding in on themselves as they cannibalise district comps and the number of competitive teams within these comps continually being reduced. Let's face it: it is only school boy footy, play it on Thursday sports afternoon like everyone else (whether there is 100 years of traditional or not, sorry dudes but the senior game is now professional - changes are required), allowing players to play club footy on weekends.

You do realise that they could play school games at 3am on a monday morning and it wouldn't make a difference, the 1st XV players wouldn't be allowed to play club.

 

[whatever]

You do realise that they could play school games at 3am on a monday morning and it wouldn't make a difference, the 1st XV players wouldn't be allowed to play club.

If they are unable to look at the big picture (overall rugby development) then maybe they should be forced to play at 3am monday morning.